JAN. 20, 1834.]

Removal of the Deposites.

[H. of R.

the draft is paid by the agent of your banker with the United States? The answer to this question brings me to money he got for it, and is protested against you, and the amendment which I have submitted to the considerasent bank, and he claims twenty per cent. damages, mak- tion of the House. Mr. Speaker, we have been told by ing $20,000 of you, for the non-payment by your factor. the gentleman from Pennsylvania, (and I have no doubt Upon your representing to him the hardship of the case, there are others who believe so,) that the State banks will he replies that the law allows it, and you muɛt pay it. not be able efficiently to perform all the services required, Would not your reply be, "Sir, I know the law allows and to render the necessary facilities to the Government it, but I have given you my business for more than six-and the community in the collection and distribution of teen years; there has always been a large balance in your the revenue. I believe those gentlemen are mistaken. hands, on which you have operated without paying me The capital will still remain in the country, whether in a any interest, and I think it hard and unconscionable that Bank of the United States or in the State banks; and the you should exact it of me. I am willing to pay all the same accommodations can be extended to the commercial damages you have sustained; and if you exact the twenty community by one bank as by the other. Bills of exper cent. I must pay it; but we will now close our busi- change have been the medium by which the United States ness, and I will employ some other banker." I put it to Bank has changed her funds from one section of the Union the candor of every man who hears me, whether he would to another, to meet the exigencies of the United States. not take away his business from any banker who would This can be done by the State banks. It is now done make such a demand of him? There can be but one every day, in every commercial city, by those banks, for answer. The gentleman from Pennsylvania has told us, the convenience of the community; and it will be only "The thing which passes his comprehension is, that a necessary to extend it commensurate with the wants of mere claim by the bank-a claim without suit or other the Government. The same means of information which act-a claim which it is the privilege of the lowest and enabled the United States Bank to know where to conpoorest to make upon the highest and richest in the land, tract and where to extend her business, whence to draw without incurring either forfeiture or damage-that this her funds, and where to transmit them, will be equally should be gravely put forth as a brand of faithlessness open to the directors of the State banks. All the bankupon the bank, and a forfeiture of her right to the public ing and commercial talents do not belong to the Bank of deposites." Sir, the gentleman is badly informed. It is the United States; and if they did, when that expires they not a mere claim. The bank has not only made the claim, will be transferred to the State institutions. she has held on to the $158,000.

We have been also told by the gentleman from PennBut, sir, admitting that the Bank of the United States sylvania that the State banks have made the attempt, and is entirely safe, and has never failed to pay or transfer have failed; and that they will again fail whenever they any money when required-and it is but justice to her to they shall make the experiment, and the country will be say, I fully believe and freely admit it-and admitting, flooded with depreciated paper, and harassed with a dewhat is not true, and which I have endeavored to show is ranged currency. Sir, it would be unfair and unwise to not true, that the bank has acted perfectly correct, and argue from the attempt which was made in 1814-'15. has never been guilty of any malversations, I am clearly The situation of the State banks is widely different from of opinion that the public deposites ought to have been what it was then. The United States were struggling removed, for the purpose of putting into operation and through a long, tedious, and expensive war, into which perfecting some other system of finance to supply the she had plunged without preparation--in which she conplace of the one which has been practised through the tinued for some years, without additional taxes, till she medium of the Bank of the United States. had almost exhausted her credit. During this long and The charter of the bank will expire in 1836, and she expensive war, she had resort to the State banks; and can no longer perform those services. The gentleman they were compelled to issue notes, not on their capital, from Pennsylvania has told us that the State banks cannot but on their credit, to supply the wants of the Govern discharge the functions of a fiscal agent; that they cannot ment. While the war lasted, the credit of the banks and distribute and transfer the revenue throughout the Union, of the notes was sustained by the patriotic feelings of the as the same will be wanted by the United States. I do people. When it ended, the stimulant was gone, the exnot agree with him; but if the matter be doubtful, it is citement was over, and syncope ensued. The bills betime the experiment were made. There are many on came depreciated, and were returned in large numbers this floor, and I am one of them, who cannot consent to to the bank. The inevitable consequence was, an inavote for a charter of a Bank of the United States while bility and refusal to redeem them with specie. And will the constitution remains unchanged. No motives of con- any man pretend this would not have been the situation venience or expediency can avail. It is important that of the United States Bank? Depend upon it, sir, if the the experiment should be made. And if we find the State Bank of the United States had been in existence at that banks cannot supply the place of an efficient fiscal agent, time, and had supplied the wants of the Government, she an amendment of the constitution must be made, and the would have been no better able to redeem her notes. necessity of the thing may reconcile us to the measure. The condition of the State banks now is very different: With a knowledge that the present charter will expire in they are in a strong and healthy state; their bills are in two years; with a perfect confidence that the charter will good credit, pass currently, and are redeemed with specie not be renewed in that time; with a certainty on the part on demand. They are generally under wise and prudent of some, and of doubt with others, as to the inefficiency management, and amply able to comply with their enof the State banks, is it not the duty of prudent counsel-gagements. As well might you judge now what they lors to provide, by a wise foresight and timely action, for are competent to do, from what they were unable to do the difficulties which are before us? Will not a skilful then, as you would be competent to determine that a man pilot and prudent mariner regard the approaching tem- of robust and vigorous health was unable to perform some pest, and trim his sails to the coming storm? And shall feat of strength and activity, because he had attempted those who are placed at the helm of state stand idle and the same feat, and had failed, just after a long and dan unconcerned, and regardless of the future, and make no gerous paroxysm of fever, and before he had recovered preparation for the difficulties which await us, and the from its debilitating and paralyzing effects. dangers which threaten? The gentleman from South Carolina has depicted in And where shall we find a fiscal agent which can supply glowing and animated language the dangers of the union the place, perform the services, and discharge the duties of the moneyed interest of the country and the patronage which have been heretofore done by the Bank of the of the Executive; and has told us, if he had the power to

H. OF R.]

Removal of the Deposites-The Pension Laws.

[JAN. 20, 21, 1834

control it, the Bank of the United States should always [tionality of the bank can never consent to the renewal f be opposed to the President of the United States. I en- its charter. Some place of depository must be chosen, tirely agree with him, and the very object of the amend- and that place of depository ought to be selected by Cor ment is to guard against the dangers of such a union. gress. We ought not to risk that meretricious union of We need not be told of the control which the Executive moneyed power and executive patronage, so much to se would have over all the State banks, if he has the discre- dreaded.

tionary power of placing the public deposites in what banks The gentleman from Pennsylvania has told us, “if the he pleases, upon what terms he pleases, and as long as bank is not to be rechartered, the bank is as well pre he pleases. We need not be told that such an unholy pared for the removal of the deposites now, as two year and "meretricious union" would be more deleterious hence." So are the people. Let us restore confidesce than the baneful influence of the bohun upas, more de- and quiet to the community, by prompt and decisive a structive than the desolating blast of the simoom. In tion; let us by law prescribe the terms on which the these halls, where the voice of liberty is raised, and the public money shall be placed in the State banks, and least vestal flame of freedom is continually burning, altars will nothing to executive discretion to control them; ki w be raised, and sweet incense burnt, to the spirit of money not give that patronage, that dangerous power, to the and the spirit of despotism. Executive, already too powerful. Restore them not i Sir, has that gentleman never thought this meretricious the Bank of the United States; depend upon it, if you de union might be formed between the Bank of the United you will be shorn of your strength-you will be powerles States and the President of the United States? Has he to oppose a charter. I call upon the gentleman fr never supposed that, but for the fortunate difficulties be- Virginia [Mr. ARCHER] on my right, whose uniform coure tween the present Executive and the bank, there might in public life has placed him in the front rank-I call upo now be that very "meretricious union;" that the bank all the State rights party in this House--I earnestly et might again have been rechartered; and all the power, treat them to aid me in the defence of the outworks, La and the influence, and the patronage of the Executive we may not be driven to the citadel, and perish under the and the bank united to destroy the rights of the States, ruins of the constitution. break down the bulwarks of the constitution, and raise up one grand consolidated empire?

TUESDAY, JANUARY 21.

After the first business of the morning had been trans acted, the House took up the resolution of Mr. CHILTON, concerning

THE PENSION LAWS.

The State banks have separate and distinct interests, and can never be beyond the control of the State LegisJatures. The directors of those institutions belong to the community in which they live, have the same interests, the same feelings, and must be more or less under the influence of the friends and relations by whom they are Mr. HARDIN said he did not understand the history of surrounded; they must witness the calamity, and embar- the Indian wars in the manner in which it was understood rassment, and distress, which selfish and interested meas- by the gentleman from Rhode Island. Those wars were ures may produce, and they cannot be insensible to pub- the most desperate and bloody which history recorded, lic opinion. Not so the Bank of the United States. The and continued, without intermission, from 1778 to 1794 directors can have no feelings, no interests, common with He went into a recital of some of the principal events of the people, except where the principal bank is situated; those wars, and showed that they were connected with they have no sympathy for their sufferings; they do not the war of the revolution, and grew out of the hostility of hear their complaints nor see their distress; they are be- the Indian allies of Great Britain. yond the influence even of friends and of public opinion; These were not the petty conflicts which the gentlen and to all the complaints, in every place where a branch from Rhode Island supposed them to be. Mr. H. passed is situated, the single answer may be given, "We have a high eulogium on the character of the Kentucky milits, received directions from the principal bank, and we are as exhibited in the Indian wars, and during the late war compelled to obey them." While it is potent for good, with Great Britain. When the Governor of Rhode Island, it is more potent for evil. There is a unity of action, with an army of fifteen men, was hesitating whether he with a weight of power that is irresistible. The branches, could constitutionally take the field or not, the venerable like so many powerful engines, are all propelled by one Governor of Kentucky was facing the enemy with twe master wheel; one man controls and regulates the whole; thousand of the bravest and best of the sons of Kentucky he wills, and money is abundant-all is plenty, and peace, no constitutional scruples were felt there. The gentle and prosperity. "A change comes over the spirit of his man from Rhode Island deemed it a reproach to take the dream," he wills, and the money is drawn into the vaults of spoils of his vanquished foe. He had taken the idea from the bank from all parts of the country; poverty, and distress, the story of Ajax and Ulysses, but had forgotten that part and ruin overspread the land. I will not extend the picture. which best applied to the case. The Grecian generals But we have been told by my honorable colleague that awarded the arms to Ulysses, and left the old vaunting the State banks are unsafe; and by the advocates of a chief in mortification and despair. Mr. H. greatly rebank, that if there be no United States Bank, State banks gretted that this subject should be attempted to be turnwill spring up, like mushrooms, in every hot-bed. To ed into ridicule. The people of the West have as strong the last I will say, no danger is to be apprehended from claims to pensions as any in America. He repeated that the multitude of banks; the evil will correct itself. they bore a part in the revolutionary war, and were enti have some experience in this matter: I can well remem-tled to the same consideration with those who fought on ber when we had few banks; they did as they pleased; the east side of the mountains. The gentleman from and if a man requested specie, he was insulted by the South Carolina [Mr. PINCKNEY] contended that the officers of the bank. Now you are treated with polite- whole pension system was unconstitutional. Was it unness, and the specie is produced, or the credit of the constitutional to pay men who are engaged in the land and bank is gone, and her bills come in from all directions. naval service of the United States? If they are wounded To my colleague I would say: If the State banks are un-in service, is it unconstitutional to pension them? If they safe now, they will be equally so two years hence; they die in service, is it unconstitutional to give half-pay for are as safe now as they will be then. When the charter five or ten years to their widows? Certainly not; and, for expires, you must have some place of depository. Where the same reasons, it is not unconstitutional to pension shall it be? This question must be answered. Those those who have rendered military services. The military who maintain the rights of the States and the unconstitu- pension system was dictated by sound national policy

JAN. 21, 22, 1834.]

The Pension Laws-Deposite Question-Appropriation Bill.

[H. of R.

He would never pension officers who were engaged in ence under the impression that the two Houses would ulcivil service. When a man is ordered to storm a bat-timately agree; because, when the conferees came totery or scale a fort, if he knows that it is unconstitutional gether, they would find the proposition of the House so for the Government to provide for his wife and family if reasonable that they would agree to it. He had not rehe falls, or for himself if he is wounded, his courage and ceived any information as to the probable course of the ardor are damped. But if the Government say to him, Senate from any member of that body. Go on, we will be a father to your family, and take care of you-he has no longer any hesitation, and braves death without dismay. He hoped never to see the time when we should be such sticklers for the constitution that we could do nothing of a useful or practical kind. Some remarks had been made as to the probable number of the persons who would be entitled to pensions under the proposed measure. The number of those engaged at different times in the wars with the Indians did not ex-rel between the two Houses, provoked by the Senate. ceed twenty thousand, and of these not more than three or four thousand could now be alive; but this was a subject proper for the inquiry of a committee.

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22.

THE APPROPRIATION BILL.

As soon as the Journal was read

Mr. POLK moved to take up the bill making appropriations, in part, for the service of the Government during the year 1834. His object was to propose a conference with the Senate in relation to the amendment to which the Senate had adhered, and he had no doubt that, through means of a conference, the difficulty might be settled.

The bill having been taken up, Mr. P. moved that the House insist upon the disagreement to the amendment of the Senate, striking out the clause relative to the appropriation of the contingent fund to the two Houses for the purposes of printing, and purchase of books, maps, &c. Mr. HARDIN said that his impression was, in regard to the point of order, that a conference between the two Houses could not be asked after one of them had adhered. The Senate having adhered, the House must recede or lose the bill. For his part, he would rather recede than lose the bill.

Mr. POLK: I am not prepared to say that I would. As to the point of order, he was satisfied that the motion which he had made was strictly in order. The position in which the House was placed might be undesirable, but, being so placed, he was prepared to act. He should abstain from any debate, unless it was forced upon him. He believed that the committee of conference would settle the question in the manner in which it ought be settled, and that it was due to the Senate and to ourselves to ask a conference.

Mr. ADAMS thanked the gentleman for the information that his impressions were not derived from that source. Now, sir, said he, if the gentleman rests upon the reasonableness of his proposition, it is my impression that the Senate will not agree to it, and he was sure that they ought not. What would be the consequence? When we send a message to the Senate asking a conference, they will reject it. It will then go before the world as a quar

He did not expect that the gentleman had this design in view, but the effect would be to put the two before the country in that attitude. The consequences of making such an impression on the public mind would, in his opinion, be more injurious than the loss of the bill. He hoped that we should give up our provision, or adhere, and let the bill go. It would be better to lose this bill, however urgent it may be, and to get up another in its place, after much inconvenience from the delay, than to put the two Houses before the nation in a quarrelling at titude. I say it is my impression that the Senate will reject the conference, but that impression has not been derived from conversation with any Senator. The provision introduced into the bill by the House he regarded as useless and insulting to the Senate, and the House, in his opinion, ought not to adhere to it. The honor of the House, and the peace and quiet of the nation, required that the House should recede. If the gentleman was so tenacious of the provision, let him bring forward a separate bill, and enact it as a general law.

Mr. FOOT said the decision of the Chair was correct

as to the parliamentary rule; but the practice had not prevailed in this country. The Senate had adhered, in the first instance, without insisting; and the door to conference was, therefore, closed. The Senate, by adhering, had signified that there was something in the bill which was insulting to the dignity of their body, and that it was a subject for further consideration. The gentleman from Tennessee supposes that the Senate will recede, but the record of their proceeding in regard to the matter does not encourage the supposition. Look at the vote on the question

The CHAIR interposed, and stated that it was not in order to refer to the vote of the Senate.

Mr. FOOT said the whole object of a conference at this stage of the proceedings was to put on record the reasons of the two Houses for adhering. Now, he had no reason to give for the course of this House, and he was not willing to put upon record that this House had denied to the Senate the exercise of a privilege which we claimed for ourselves.

Mr. EVERETT, of Massachusetts, asked whether the Chair was of opinion that the motion of the gentleman from Tennessee was in order.

The CHAIR replied, Certainly. In the British Parliament it was once the usage not to confer after adherence, The CHAIR stated that the motion was in order. but that rule had been changed, and it was the practice Mr. J. Q. ADAMS said that, according to the practice to ask a conference after an adherence by both Houses. of Congress for the last thirty years, when either House The practice here had been d fferent. After an adhe announced to the other its adherence, there could be no rence by both Houses, it had never been the usage to ask conference. We must either recede, or adhere and lose a conference. But when one House mounted up at once the bill; and this practice, he contended, had its advan-to an adherence, and the other did not, the other could tages. The chairman of the Committee of Ways and ask a conference. This last course was taken in two promMeans has intimated that if we now insist, and ask a con-inent instances-in regard to the Missouri restriction ference, the question will be finally settled. I ask, sir, bill, and the judiciary bill, as he showed by reference to where the honorable chairman got his information? and I the journals. It was for the House now to adhere, (in pause for a reply. which case, there could be no conference;) or to recede;

Mr. POLK replied that he had proposed the confer- or to insist, and ask a conference.

1

H. OF R.]

Appropriation Bill.

[JAN. 22, 184.

Mr. EVERETT, after some remarks upon the deci- House, courtesy and justice demanded that we should n sion of the Chair, remarked that he had understood the refuse to extend the same confidence to the members of gentleman from Tennessee to say that he had no doubt the co-ordinate branch of the Legislature. The bill ap the Senate would give way.

Mr. POLK explained. He had no doubt that, in a conference, the two Houses would agree, and he would give a reason for that opinion. The provision would be so modified us to impose no further restriction upon the Senate than upon this House. This was the only mode of ascertaining whether the two Houses could agree without bringing forward a new bill. He asked the conference in order to avoid the adherence, and the consequent loss of the bill.

Mr. EVERETT understood, he said, that it was now admitted that the clause in question was copied by inadvertence from the bill of last session, and that the provision was of one year's standing alone. He had repeatedly stated to the House, during the progress of this bill, that the provision had not been inserted in any former bill, except that of the last year. But it was insisted upon that it had been a standing provision for four years. But he objected to any limitation of the contingent fund in this way. Let this bill fall, and some other way can be provided by which the members may receive their pay and mileage. If the two Houses must quarrel, let it be on some more important point than this."

Mr. SUTHERLAND made some remarks on the point

of order.

propriated about $38,000 for defraying the contingent epenses of that body, and he was willing to believe the they would expend it judiciously, and was not for saying that they should come to the House, and ask us to what objects they should apply it. We were bound to believe that they would be faithful and discreet in its disburse ment. The proposed restriction by this House refuse! to accord to them that fidelity and discretion, and he w not surprised that they considered themselves insulted by the course adopted by the House. He believed that the obnoxious clause had been inserted by the House with due and proper reflection; it was a small business at bes and he hoped the House would recede, and permit the bill to be passed, which contained appropriations for the officers of the Government, and others, some of what were in great need of the money.

Mr. EVERETT, of Vermont, considered it almost i loss of time to continue debating on a trifling amount com cerning the contingent expenses of the House, rather th attend to the more important amounts embraced in te general appropriations.

In answer to a question

Mr. POLK said that the proposed committee of co ference would be empowered either to agree in whole or in part with the Senate, or to reject, if they pleased. Or Mr. McKENNAN said that he was opposed to the prop- they would be empowered to substitute another clause c osition of the gentleman from Tennessee, [Mr. POLK,] amendment, as might be agreed on by the conferees c for the same reasons for which he resisted and voted both Houses, and then ask the concurrence of their re against the restriction originally inserted by the House in spective bodies. He considered it better thus to submit the bill. He was opposed to it because he considered the the views of either House, to avoid the collision of bath restriction as casting an imputation upon the integrity of He again explained the tendency of the obnoxious clausethe House itself, as well as offering an insult to the co- that it was to confine the compensation for any books ordinate branch of the Legislature. He asked what are which may be ordered to appropriations for the objects the provisions of the bill? It appropriates about $150,000 specified, not to have them paid for from the contingent as a contingent fund to defray the expenses of the House, funds; and to prevent either House from making appro and he, for one, was willing to believe that there was no priations without the concurrence of the other, as by the danger of the majority of the House making an extrava- constitution established. The same principle contained gant or wasteful expenditure of this sum placed at their in the restrictive clause has been consecutively adopted disposal. He, for one, had confidence in the integrity of by both Houses during the last four years, and maint a majority of the House, and did not believe that they ed, with but one exception, in the case of a book ordere would apply the money to any other than proper objects. by the House. He had not the slightest intention by his The proposed restriction contained a palpable acknow- motion to offer an insult to the Senate; nor was it in the ledgment that we are afraid to trust ourselves. He said contemplation of the House to distrust themselves. The he was not willing to sanction such an acknowledgment. motion was in the parliamentary course of proceedings, He was not for tying up the hands of the House in the and was meant to adjust difference rather than agitate disposition of the fund, believing that there was no dan dissension. A conference being granted can do no hard, ger of a misapplication of the money. If there should be and it may effect much good.

a map, or chart, or any other work, which the majority Mr. BARRINGER inquired of the Speaker what would of the House should think absolutely necessary to be be the result if the conference were granted by both spread before their constituents for their information, or Houses, and that no agreement resulted. Would there to enable themselves to discharge their duties in an en- be an alternative on the part of the House to recede, of lightened and satisfactory manner, he was utterly opposed would the bill lie on the table of the Senate and be lost to being compelled to knock at the door of the Senate, The SPEAKER said that the clause of adhering, not (which would be the effect of the proposed restriction,) insisting, being connected with that for the conference, and ask their permission whether we should direct the would have the effect of placing the bill on the table of publication, or purchase the work, which we have deem- the Senate, in case of refusal to compromise.

ed so important. We are competent to judge for our- Mr. BARRINGER considered it better to insist and re selves; and, he said, he could not submit to the doctrine tain the bill, rather than adhere, and have it lost in case that we must go to the Senate and ask them to what ob- of refusal. jects we shall appropriate the contingent fund of the Mr. BOULDIN said he had voted for the proviso House, without entering his protest against it. debate, when it was originally proposed in the bill of ap And whilst the proposed restriction cast a reflection propriation for contingent expenses, because he expect upon the House, it at the same time was a direct insult ed it would limit the range of expenditure under the offered to the Senate. It contained a provision for the head of general appropriation. But finding that, instea payment of books already contracted for by the House, of so limiting, it had the effect of actually enlarging the but made no appropriation for discharging the debt con- expenses and appropriations--because all not specifical tracted by the Senate for books already purchased by prohibited are supposed to be countenanced; and the that body. It thus made an invidious distinction between prohibition being only on the purchase of books, even the two branches of the Legislature. But, further; whilst thing analogous to books is supposed to be included in he had confidence in the integrity and discretion of the the general appropriation for contingent expenses-be

would therefore now reverse his vote; acting on the same principle as that which induced him originally to support the proviso. Every expense not embraced in the particuJar interdiction is countenanced; and therefore may adroitPly be foisted into the contingent expenses. The bill was originally made on the spur of the moment, and therefore more obnoxious to error; for he remembered that Lord Coke has distinctly asserted that few good laws are ever made on the spur or excitement of the occasion. The proviso of the present bill is a proof of his assertion.

Mr. BROWN addressed a few words to the House, which were inaudible in the reporters' seat.

Mr. POLK was willing to modify his resolution so as to obtain only the committee of conference, without the clause insisting on the disagreement.

[H. of R.

In answer to a question from the SPEAKER, Mr. POLK said that he would not withdraw the clause of his motion which insisted on the disagreement from the amendment of the Senate.

Mr. GAMBLE said that he was not aware, in voting for the proviso, that it did not place both Houses on the same footing, or that it imposed any distinctive restrictions on the Senate which they had not imposed on themselves. He was, indeed, reluctant that any should possess a discretionary power over the contingent fund, but he desired that every anticipated expense should have its due appropriation provided in time. He regretted being often obliged to vote in the dark, or not at all, from the noise too often prevailing in the House, which prevented him and many others from not understanding the provisoes of bills, and often from not understanding even their objects, so that the members are sometimes obliged to trust to the fidelity of the movers, or to promenade about.

Mr. FOSTER considered that the House should have a respect for itself as well as for the Senate; and that they should have a laudable jealousy for the expenditure of the public money. The members of the House are the Mr. FOOT now moved that the House should recede representatives of the people, and from them should all from its former resolution of disagreement. appropriations emanate. It was therefore the duty of Mr. FILLMORE had voted for the proviso, but was not the Senate to request the conference after the House had aware that any preference had been given to either House. so unequivocally disagreed to the amendment on an ap- Mr. POLK explained. When the proviso was originpropriation bill; to receive it as proposed by the House, ally proposed, as it had been usually adopted in former or to reject it in toto—not, certainly, to send it back with years, he was unconscious that any distinction existed in a message that they had adhered to their own amendment. the restrictive clause; and when he was apprized of the He would prefer that the bill should be lost, rather than distinction, that no payment should be made of books exthe dignity of the House should be lost. The Senate is cept ordered by the House, instead of being ordered by not responsible to the country for the appropriations both Houses, at the time the bill was returned amended made; courtesy might therefore have prevented them by the Senate, he was anxious to alter the clause, so as to from making an amendment--at least from adhering to an obviate the distinction, when he was informed by the amendment-which met the disapprobation of that House, Speaker that such an amendment by the House would whose duty and right it more immediately is to control not then be in order. It had passed unobserved through the expenses of the nation. He was reluctant to surrender the last Congress, and it was foreign from his mind to the principle contained in the proviso; and rather than have made any distinction whatever between either House. have it lost, he desired to have the whole bill lost, and At present, therefore, he considered it the best mode to that the responsibility should then rest on the other House. insist on the proviso, and ask a conference, so as to retain In a similar discussion in that House, he had asserted that the bill in possession of the House, rather than adhere to the contingent fund ought to be more properly designat- the disagreement and ask a conference, which, if ineffeced the convenient fund; and this he now repeated: for it tual to a compromise, must necessarily lose the bill altowas too well known that it was generally used as a matter gether. of convenience, and that a dash of the pen often could draw on it for $30,000. He hoped the House would be mindful of its own privileges and rights, as well as regard. ful of the liberties and taxes of the people, not to concede the proviso; and he trusted that the gentleman from Tennessee would not withdraw his motion insisting on the disagreement, if he did not withdraw that demanding a conference.

Mr. FOOT asked if it would be in order to make a motion to recede from the disagreement of the House. The SPEAKER said that such a motion was in order; and that it would have the precedence of that before the

House.

Mr. J. Q. ADAMS read extracts from a work on the routine of business in the British_Parliament, relative to the results in the different stages of disagreement between both Houses, in insisting and adhering to their original motions, and asking a conference; which appeared to be at variance with the statement made by the Speaker.

The SPEAKER then maintained his own views, verifying it by the practice of Congress in its action on the judiciary bill; and by this practice he considered himself bound, although his own private opinion was in coincidence with that of the parliamentary routine read by the gentleman from Massachusetts, and had been so expressed on the judiciary bill referred to at the time of his predeMr. BELL, of Tennessee, said, that although they cessor in the Chair. But, finding that a different pracshould not be over sensitive of the votes of the other tice had prevailed, he saw no adequate reason to deviate House, yet that members should be disposed to pay the from it. There are three stages in the procedure-askSenate proper respect. When he had voted for the clause ing, insisting, and adhering. If the House insist and ask originally, and for the motion of disagreement, he was the conference, it can retain the bill in its possession, unconscious that the proviso made any distinction what-provided the conferees of the other House do agree to a ever between the restriction on appropriations being made compromise; but if it adheres, when it asks the conferby either House. Yet there is really a manifest difference, it must lose the bill, if there be no agreement be. ence; although such a distinction was not intended by the tween the compromisers; particularly as the Senate have House, nor by those from whom the bill had originated. in this instance advanced at once to adhere, without adoptThere was a reservation of funds as appropriations for ing the intermediate step to insist. books, &c. ordered by this House, which was denied to the other. He did not, therefore, wonder that the Senate, finding such an invidious distinction, had made the amendment, and afterwards sent back the bill with the message, proceeding at once to adhere, before it insisted on its amendment, from the distinction so obviously wade in favor of this House. He therefore considered it better that a conference should be granted, to rectify the proviso. VOL. X.-157

In answer to a question from Mr. WILDE,

The SPEAKER said that the privileged question of a motion to recede had certainly the preference over the motion by the gentleman from Tennessee, but that an amendment on it would have the precedence over itself.

A dispute then ensued between the SPEAKER and Mr. WILDE, concerning the result of a motion to recede being carried. The Speaker considered that if the House