SENATE.]

Restoration of the Deposites.

[MAY 28, 1834.

now provoke any debate. All that I have further to say, the day for Tuesday next. Here, then, are two questions is to express a hope that the resolutions will be acted on, and will be suffered to receive the decision of the Senate, without any unnecessary or protracted debate.

depending between the House and the bank; the first, an inquiry into the misconduct of the bank; the second, a proposition to compel the bank to submit to the authority Mr. BENTON deemed the present moment to be the of the House. Was it right for the Senate to interpose most objectionable time that could have been selected for between those bodies while these questions were dependproposing to restore the public deposites to the United ing? Was it right to interfere on the part of the bank? States Bank. Such a proposition might have been a Was it right for the Senate to leap into the arena, throw proper proceeding at the commencement of the session. itself between the contending parties, take sides with the A joint resolution, at that time, would have been the bank, and virtually declare to the American people that proper mode; it could have been followed by action; and, there was no cause for inquiry into the conduct of the if constitutionally passed, would have compelled the res- bank, and no ground of censure for resisting the authoritoration of these deposites. But the course was different.ty of the House? Such would, doubtless, be the effect A separate resolution was brought in, and passed the Sen- of the conduct of the Senate, if it should entertain the ate; and there it stopped. It was a nugatory resolution, proposition which is now submitted to it. That proposileading to no action. It was such a one as a State Legis- tion is one of honor and confidence to the bank. It prolature, or a public meeting, might adopt, because they ceeds upon the assumption that the bank is right, and the had no power to legislate on the subject. But the Senate House is wrong, in the questions now depending between had the power of legislation; and, six months ago, when them; that the bank has done nothing to merit inquiry, or the separate resolution was brought in, the Senate, if it to deserve censure; and that the public moneys ought to intended to act legislatively on the subject at all, ought be restored to her keeping, without waiting the end of to have proceeded by joint resolution, or by bill, at that the investigation which the House has ordered, or the detime. But it thought otherwise. The separate resolu- cision of the resolution which affirms that the bank has tion was adopted; after adoption, no instruction was given resisted the authority of the House, and committed a conto a committee to bring in a bill; nothing was done to give tempt against it. This is the full and fair interpretation legislative effect to the decision of the Senate; and now, the clear and speaking effect-of the measure now proat the end of six months, the first attempt is made to move posed to the Senate. Is it right to treat the House thus? in our legislative capacity, and to pass a joint resolution Her resolutions, adopted with the greatest unanimity, im-equivalent to a statute-to compel the restoration of ply the worst of misconduct to the bank. Certainly the these deposites. This is the state of the proceeding; and, House would not order an inquiry, unless they believed Mr. B. must be permitted to say, and to give his reasons there was ground for it-grave and serious ground for it. for saying, that the time selected for this first step, in our The specified points of inquiry went to malpractices and legislative capacity, in a case so long depending, is most abuses-to corruptions and oppressions-to violations and inappropriate and objectionable. Mr. B. would not dwell forfeiture of the charter! If true, they not only showed upon the palpable objections to this proceeding, which the bank to be unworthy of keeping the public moneys, must strike every mind. The advanced stage of the ses- but unworthy of existence! a criminal institution, ripe for sion-the propositions to adjourn-the quantity of busi- the stroke of justice, and awaiting the sentence of the law! ness on hand-the little probability that the House and the Was it right for the Senate, by adopting a resolution of President would concur with the Senate, or that two-thirds honor and confidence to the bank, to make a virtual decof the two Houses could be brought to pass the resolution, laration, that the bank was innocent, and the House culif the President declined to give it his approbation. These pable, for proceeding against her? That the inquiry dipalpable objections must strike every mind, and make it rected by the House is frivolous and unfounded-unworappear to be a useless consumption of time for the Senate thy of consideration-and not fit to arrest, for a moment, to pass the resolution. Virtually, it included a proposition the full current of honor and confidence from the Senate to re-charter the bank; for the most confidential friends to the bank?

of that institution admitted that it was improper to restore In the front of these inquiries, said Mr. B., stood the the deposites, unless the bank charter was to be contin- prominent subject of the public distress; that distress ued. The proposition to restore, then, virtually included which had been the subject of so many meetings, the burthe proposition to re-charter; and that was a proposition den of so many memorials, and the pregnant topic of so which, after having been openly made on this floor, and many woful speeches on this floor. The first subject of leave asked to bring in a bill to that effect, had been aban-inquiry was, into the cause of this distress. The comdoned, under the clear conviction that the measure could mittee were directed to ascertain whether the bank, not pass. Passing from these palpable objections, Mr. B. through its money, or through its management and influproceeded to state another reason, of a different kind, ence, had contributed to produce the distress which the and which he held to be imperative of the course which innumerable memorials presented to Congress so bitterly the Senate should now pursue: he alluded to the state of complained of; and they were directed to search for the the questions at this moment depending between the Bank evidence of that fact in the bank itself. Will the Senate, of the United States and the House of Representatives, by its act, virtually affirm the frivolity or the untruth of and the nature of which exacted from the Senate the ob- this inquiry? Will the Senate, virtually, intelligibly, and servance of a strict neutrality, and an absolute non-inter-practically, acquit the bank, when the bank will not acference between those two bodies. The House of Rep-quit itself?-will not suffer its innocence to be tested by resentatives had ordered an inquiry into the affairs and the recorded voice of its own books, and the living voice conduct of the bank. The points of inquiry indicated of its own directors? These directors have refused to misconduct of the gravest import, and had been ordered testify; they have refused to be sworn; they have reby the largest majority, not less than three or four to one. fused to touch the book; because, being directors and That inquiry was not yet finished; it was still depending; corporators, and therefore parties, they cannot be rethe committee appointed to conduct it remains organized, quired to give evidence against themselves. And this reand has only reported in part. That report is before the fusal, the public is gravely told, is made upon the advice Senate and the public; and shows that the directors of the of eminent counsel. What counsel? The counsel of the Bank of the United States have resisted the authority of law, or of fear? Certainly no lawyer-not even a junior the House-have made an issue of power between itself apprentice to the law-could give such advice. The right and the House-for the trial of which issue a resolution is to stand mute, does not extend to the privilege of refusing now depending in the House, and is made the order of to be sworn. The right does not attach until after the

MAY 28, 1834.]

Restoration of the Deposites.

[SENATE.

oath is taken, and is then limited to the specific question, so largely into the currency of the country and the revthe answer to which might inculpate the witness, and enues of the Union? The words of the resolutions are, which he may refuse to answer, because he will say, upon to cause information to be communicated to the people his oath, that the answer will criminate himself. But in regard to the nature and operations of the bank. The these bank directors refuse to be sworn at all. They re- President of the bank was to execute the resolution, and fuse to touch the book; and, in that refusal, commit a has executed it at an immense expense, every fifth dollar of flagrant contempt against the House of Representatives, which is the money of the people. The operations of the and do an act for which any citizen would be sent to jail bank have thus been made the subject of communication by any justice of the peace in America. And is the Sen- to the people by the bank itself. The board of directorsate to justify the directors for this contempt? to get be- the very men now directing the bank, have admitted the tween them and the House? to adopt a resolution before-right of the people to be made acquainted with the nature hand-before the day fixed for the decision of the con- and with the operations of the bank; they have filled tempt, which shall throw the weight of the Senate into newspapers and periodicals with their communications, the scale of the directors against the House, and virtually intended to influence the opinions of the people; and declare that they are right in refusing to be sworn? If it now, when the representatives of the people send a comdoes, said Mr. B., it may find itself confronted by the au-mittee to obtain a little more of that information, and to thority of the bank, as well as by the stern voice of the find out whether the communications already made conlaw. The bank itself-the directors individually, and the tain the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, corporation as a board-have heretofore admitted and de- they are unblushingly denied the privilege! Mr. B. proclared the right of the people to have the evidence which ceeded to a third piece of testimony to convict the bank, is now demanded. He did not speak of the former ex-upon its own evidence and its own acts, of self-contradicaminations, in which directors were sworn, and books ex-tion, in refusing to give testimony before the committee, amined. Strong as these cases were, he passed them and refusing to permit copies to be taken from the bank over, to get at cases stronger still, and which should ex-books: it was in the fact, that these identical directors, hibit the present directors themselves-the same men, in-the same who now refuse to be sworn, had already apdividually and corporately, upon their oaths, and upon peared as volunteer witnesses, in their own persons, in their honors, in their most solemn and authentic acts, con- the very case, and to the self-same points, in many intradicting and condemning their present pretensions, and stances, to which they now refuse to testify. Here, said acknowledging the right of the people to have the evi- Mr. B., is the proof, holding up a printed pamphlet. It dence of their books, and of their oaths, to elucidate any is a little book of forty pages, drawn up by a committee question, either of abuse of powers, corruption of con-of the bank, adopted by the board of directors, 5,000 duct, or violation of charter, which may be charged upon

them.

tee.

copies ordered to be printed, and universally received by the friends of the bank as the evidence of its correctness Mr. B. said, that the present president of the bank had, and upright dealings. It is dated December, 1833, and heretofore, sworn to the right of Congress to know every imports to be an answer to "a paper signed Andrew thing that the bank did. It was in the investigation of Jackson, purporting to have been read to a cabinet on the 1832, and in relation to a loan, which, at the uttermost, 18th of September, and to another paper signed H. D. could only amount to malpractice, abuse, or corruption, Gilpin, J. T. Sullivan, Peter Wager, H. McElderry, and could not work a forfeiture of the charter. It was bearing date August 19th, 1833." Now, what were the the case of the first loan to Noah and Webb. This loan papers here answered by the bank, but the very papers of $15,000 had not been entered upon the books of the on the charges contained in which, the committee of the bank. Nine months after it was made, it was, for the first House was raised? The paper signed by Mr. Gilpin and the time, put upon the books. The reason of this was stated other Government directors, charged the bank with a by Mr. Biddle, in his examination before the committee. long list of malpractices, amounting to abuses, corrupIt will be seen at page 86 of the report of that commit- tions, and violations of charter. The paper read by the A committee of the House of Representatives were President to his cabinet, was founded upon the communicoming to investigate the affairs of the bank. This loan cation of the Government directors; and to these papers was not upon the books; but, at the approach of the com- the bank directors publish an answer of 40 pages, conmittee, Mr. Biddle ordered it to be put there-and de- sisting of their own statements, and of extracts from their clares his reason to be this: "I thought it right that every books, and contradicting or explaining the charges of the thing done by the bank should always be distinctly known Government directors. To this the Government directand avowed. I therefore gave the notes to the chairman ors made a rejoinder of 50 pages; and the whole came of the committee, Mr. Thomas P. Cope, who entered before Congress and the nation. Upon these charges and them on the books." Mr. B. said that he referred to this answers, the committee of the House was raised. It went testimony of Mr. Biddle, not for the transaction to which to Philadelphia to investigate the very points which had it related, but for the sentiment which it declared; a sen-been brought before the public-the very points to which timent sworn to and acted upon in 1832, and denied and the bank directors had been testifying before the public, repudiated by the same men in 1834! He had no com and publishing extracts from their books! Yet they rement to make upon this contradiction, the glaring nature fuse to be sworn! refuse to swear! refuse to testify! reof which would strike every mind. He proceeded to the next piece of evidence emanating from the bank itself, to prove the acknowledgment of their obligation to submit the operations of the bank to the judgment of the people. Every body, said Mr. B., has heard of the resolutions of the bank, adopted at the board of directors, and confirm ed and extended by successive boards, for putting the funds of the bank, without limitation of amount, at the disposition of the President, to spread information before the people. Now, what were those resolutions, either in language or in import, but authentic declarations of the right of the people to be made acquainted with the operations of an institution in which they are partners to the amount of seven millions of stock, and whose notes enter

fuse in the very case in which they had appeared as volunteer witnesses! refused to testify on the very points which fill their own pamphlet; that pamphlet of which they ordered 5,000 copies to be printed, and the contents of which have formed the basis for all those speeches in favor of the bank, of which so many myriads of copies are distributed from this Capitol, and, as it is well believed, at the expense of the bank and of the people, who pay every fifth dollar of the money expended by the bank! This is the conduct of these directors; refusing to be sworn to the truth of their own statements; refusing to appear as witnesses before a committee of the House of Representatives, after having appeared as volunteer witnesses at the bar of the public, and given evidence upon

SENATE.]

Restoration of the Deposites.-Names on the Pension Roll.

[MAY 29, 1834.

On motion of Mr. WEBSTER, the Senate then proceeded to the consideration of Executive business. After remaining for some time with closed doors, The Senate adjourned.

the identical matters in controversy! Mr. B. held, upon The resolutions were then read and ordered to a second these facts, that the bank directory were self-convicted reading. of their contumacy to the House of Representatives, and as good as convicted of all the matters laid to their charge; and that it was assuming an immense burden upon itself, for the Senate to go on to vote a restoration of the public deposites to the bank! a vote which implies honor and confidence! which treats as frivolous or unfounded the charges against the bank! which virtually pronounces the opinion of the Senate on all the questions depending between the House and the bank, and throws the weight of that opinion into the scale of the bank!

THURSDAY, MAY 29.

NAMES ON THE PENSION ROLL. The resolution submitted the day before yesterday by Mr. PRESTON, on the subject of pensions, was taken Mr. B. called the attention of the Senate to another up, on his motion; when Mr. P. addressed the Senate in point in which the body of the directors, in their answer a series of statistical remarks, for the purpose of showing to President Jackson's cabinet paper, had made a charge that the number of pensioners on the pension books are against him, which, if true, would not only degrade and far greater than the number of the survivors of the Revodishonor him personally, but entirely annihilate the influ-lutionary war, according to all the tables of longevity and ence of his name and opinions against the Bank of the all statistical principles. As he made constant reference United States. It was a charge of having attempted to to tabular statements, in the course of his observations, it make the bank subservient to his political views, and then is not practicable to give any accurate report. turning against it because he could not thus use it. The After going through his tables, Mr. P. concluded with charge was specific, with time and place, and would be expressing his wish to restore accuracy to the payment read: "It was in the midst of this career of inoffensive of pensions, and with declaring that he should follow usefulness [of the bank] when, soon after the accession up this resolution with a motion to print the list of pento power of the present Executive, the purpose was dis- sioners. tinctly revealed, that other duties than those to the coun- Mr. PRESTON was followed, in reply, by Mr. WEBtry were required, and that it was necessary for the bank, STER, Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN, Mr. SPRAGUE, Mr. in administering its affairs, to consult the political views of EWING, Mr. CHAMBERS, Mr. WRIGHT, Mr. FORthose who had now obtained the ascendant in the Execu-SYTH, Mr. CALHOUN, and Mr. SHEPLEY. tive. It is understood, that soon after that event a meet- Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN moved to amend the resoluing was held in Washington of the principal chiefs, totion by including the words "the State or Continental consider the means of perpetuating their new authority, line in which they served," which was accepted as a modand the possession of the bank was among the most ification by the mover. prominent objects of the parties assembled."

After a discussion, which continued until half past three, On motion of Mr. FORSYTH, the resolution was laid on the table for the present, the mover assenting. [The following is a copy of the resolution as now modified, and depending in the Senate:

Mr. CHAMBERS moved to amend the resolution, by This is a charge, said Mr. B., put forward by the pres-adding the following words; and the amendment was acent directors of the bank, in their pamphlet of December, cepted, as a modification, by Mr. PRESTON: 1833. It is put forward with a specification which admits "And that he be also directed to report to the Senate of proof. The time-the place-the object—and the the regulations adopted at the War Department relating parties to the meeting-are all stated; and upon this to the process necessary to entitle claimants to the benefit statement an immense superstructure of accusation has of the act of 7th June, 1832." been raised against the President. Now, the statement is either true or false; if true, it degrades and dishonors the President; if false, the people ought to know it. If the directors had submitted to be sworn, they would have been examined on this point; by refusing to be sworn, they have escaped the examination; and the people remain without proof on a point of the utmost materiality to their confidence in the administration of the Government. Mr. B. called upon all honorable men to say, whether the bank directors, after having made such a charge, and with circumstantiality of time and place, had a right to draw back and refuse to be sworn to what they had stated.

Resolved, That the Secretary of War report to the Senate a statement showing the names of the several pensioners who are now, or may have been heretofore, placed on the pension rolls, designating their rank and annual allowance, the sums which they have severally received, the laws under which their pensions have been granted, the State or Continental line in which they served, the date when placed upon the roll, their ages, and the States and counties in which they severally reside; also, the names of the pension agents who have received compensation as such, and the amount of such compensation, and the act under which it was allowed; the names of the clerks who are, and who have been, employed in the pension office, and the sums paid them as compensation; with a statement of the aggregate sum paid in each State, and an aggregate statement of the whole sum disbursed on account of pensions: and that he be also directed to report to the Senate the regulations adopted at the War Department, relating to the proofs necessary to entitle claimants to the benefit of the act of 7th June, 1832.]

YEAS.-Messrs. Benton, Black Brown, Forsyth, Grundy, Hill, Kane, King of Alabama, King of Georgia, Linn, McKean, Morris, Robinson, Shepley, Tipton, White, Wil-olution were not taken, or were mislaid, it is deemed kins, Wright.-18.

NAYS.-Messrs. Bell, Bibb, Calhoun, Chambers, Clay, Clayton, Ewing, Hendricks, Kent, Leigh, Mangum, Moore, Naudain, Poindexter, Porter, Preston, Robbins, Silsbee, Smith, Southard, Sprague, Swift, Tomlinson, Waggaman, Webster.-25.

[As entire notes of the whole debate on the above resproper to insert, in the best order we can find them, such of the remarks as we can find reported, to illustrate the synopsis given above.-Editors.]

The question on the adoption of Mr. PRESTON's resolution being under consideration:

Mr. PRESTON said, it was of importance to ascertain

MAY 29, 1834.]

Names on the Pension Roll.

[SENATE.

with precision the number of claims which would proba- the state of facts from which the gentleman reasoned, bly be made upon the Government. His object was to did not conduct him to the disproportions to which he follow up the resolution, when the information should be arrived. He had shown a great apparent disproporobtained upon it, by ordering the publication of the names tion between the population of different States and the in the various counties of the United States where the pensioners in each State, and from the longevity of the applicants for pensions, or the pensioners, reside, and South, he came to the conclusion that the proportion thus by publishing them, prevent fraud upon the Govern- should be the other way. But Mr. W. would submit to ment. In his judgment, there was some radical mistake, the honorable member, how frauds should exist in a greatmismanagement, or fraud, in the pension system, which er proportion in one part of the country than in another; called on Congress to look minutely into it. He came to at least to so enormous an extent? It could not be. We this conclusion from the fact that there were thirty-six must, therefore, look to other causes for an explanation thousand pensioners of the Revolution on the pension of the difficulty. And it might be explained by referroll. And so far from decreasing, since the adoption of ence to one or two considerations. The disproportion the present gigantic system, it had annually increased, in the emigration from different States, and the change in and was increasing, equal to the calculation made at the the population. No fact in the whole range of statistics time of its decrease. There was an actual increase of was more easily explained than the disproportion of pentwenty-five per cent., from which it would seem that sioners in New York and Massachusetts. What was New these revolutionary heroes increase in numbers. When York in the Revolution? It certainly was not to be comthe system was adopted, an elaborate report was made as pared to Massachusetts at that period. What made the to the probable and possible number which would be put population of New York? Half a million of its populaon the roll from it. The estimate was made on the max-lation went to that State after the war. The fighting men imum of numbers which would apply. The calculation rushed to New York after the peace, and the same thing then was, that it could not add more than ten thousand to took place after the Canadian war as at the peace of 1783. the pension roll. [Mr. P. here read extracts from the Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN said, that the rules of longevireport of the committee which reported the act of July, ty of the honorable gentleman from South Carolina were 1832.] The aggregate amount of revolutionary soldiers not correct or applicable; that the latitude given by the were supposed to have been 328,000, and at the time of act of 1832, to those who had served but six months, must the report, that ten thousand might, by possibility, have multiply the number of pensioners; he thought a child of been alive. But instead of ten thousand, in eighteen seven years old at the commencement of the war, might months, the applications had amounted to twenty-four have served his six months before the peace, and not be thousand six hundred, of which the Secretary of War re-a very aged man now. He did not believe the most jealported that about one thousand would probably be reject-ous scrutiny into the matter would disclose any material ed. Up to this time, then, the calculation had been more frauds. He was astonished, after the passage of the act than trebled, and thirty-six thousand were now on the of 1832, on his return home, to see so many old worthies roll. Mr. P. said, it struck him as incredible, that at this applying to the court for pensions.

time there should be so vast a number alive. It was well Mr. CHAMBERS said, he had the honor to be a memknown that our pension system was more extensive than ber of the committee by which the act of 7th June, 1832, it was in any other country-agents were appointed in had been reported, and he concurred in the remark that every part of the country to collect claims, and bring the merit of all the labor with which that bill, and the rethem before Congress-many were pushed too far, and port accompanying it, was produced, was due to the pressustained throughout by fraudulent testimony. Mr. P. ent Governor of Connecticut, then the chairman. Cerrelated a striking instance of this to sustain a claim for a tainly, the result has been to create a much larger list of pension by a person who served on board the frigate pensioners than the anticipations of the committee, or any South Carolina, during the Revolution. The present re-known standard of computation had authorized us to exsult on the pension books he considered impossible, and pect. How far this excess arises from fraud or mistake, therefore it demanded scrutiny. he had no means of judging. But, sir, said Mr. C.,

Mr. P. then proceeded at length to show, from various while the Senate is investigating this fact, it strikes me as statistical statements and tables of longevity, that so great quite becoming to look into the matter of errors and misa number of pensioners could not now be alive. He took takes against the intended objects of our bounty. What the estimated population of the United States at the Rev-number of fair and honest claims had been rejected at olution, calculated the proportion of fighting men, and as- the Department I know not; that in some instances insuming the average age at thirty, he came to the conclu-justice has been done, I affirm, as matter of my own persion, upon the ordinary tables of longevity, that there sonal knowledge. It is not a week since my personal could not be one-third the number of old soldiers now in services were rendered, and rendered cheerfully, as they existence that were represented to be living. Mr. P. always are, in aid of an old soldier, of whose participaargued, also, that fraud must exist, from the fact that a tion in the perils and sufferings of the Revolution I have large proportion of the pensioners now on the roll, were not a doubt. He had applied at the Department and was in States which produced no soldiers in the war of the informed, as most applicants are, I believe, that some furRevolution, while those States which furnished the fight-ther form was required. At the session of one of the ing men, had, comparatively, few pensioners. Mr. P. courts in my circuít he produced the printed regulation believed no one was aware of the immense expenditure of the Department, particular requirements of which which was annually made to pensioners, and that we could were marked to indicate his nonconformity. I prepared not calculate the amount to which it would extend if it for him the voucher supposed to be deficient, and a few went on two or three years more. He thought it would days ago presented his claim again, when a new printed be five or ten millions. formula was handed to me, by which it appeared the applicant must prove the year, the month, and the day, of his entering into the service, and the precise time he continued. It was in vain that I described my old acquaintance as wasted in mind as well as body; that old age had transformed the hardy, active, and intelligent soldier of '76, into a decrepit, palsied, enfeebled remnant of himself; and that to ask him to give precise dates to occurrences of near sixty years ago, which he had

Mr. WEBSTER said he presumed no member had any objection to the resolution of inquiry. If fraud had been practised, or mistake had occurred, in the administration of the pension laws, which was of so much importance as to make an inquiry necessary, why, this course was the correct one on which to commence reform. But while he concurred with the honorable gentleman in this, he would repeat a suggestion he made the other day, that

VOL. X.-115

SENATE.]

Names on the Pension Roll.

[MAY 29, 1834.

New

never reduced to writing, was to require him to commit should have made the observations which it was now his flagrant perjury. All the reply I could receive was, Such purpose to make, had it not been for the fact, that an is the language of the regulations-ita lex est scripta. My honorable Senator from Massachusetts [Mr. WEBSTER] friend who is now at the head of the Pension Committee made explanations, in answer to the Senator from South afterwards suggested, that by giving the names of the Carolina, which were perfectly satisfactory to him, and respective officers with whom he had served, and swear- he had no disposition to protract the debate, or to coning in positive terms to the minimum of his service in each sume the time of the Senate. The argument of the hontour, he might be allowed a pension for the aggregate orable Senator from South Carolina, [Mr. PRESTON,] was time to which these minimums would amount; and I wrote based upon premises which he (Mr. W.) considered unto the Commissioner of Pensions, to ascertain if such sound, and calculated to lead to error. These premises would be the case. His answer, received this morning, were comparisons of the present number of pensioners is now before me, saying, that to allow a pension on such from each State upon the pension rolls, made under the proof, would be in direct violation of the established several pension laws, with the number of troops furnished rules. by each State during the revolutionary war. These comNow, sir, how stands the case with that class of revo-parisons, as made by the honorable Senator, had no reflutionary patriots, of whom this old man may be consid-erence to the present population of the States, and here, ered the representative? They have lived by the honest Mr. W. said, he considered was the radical error. labor of their hands till age and infirmity has disabled York had been made, by the honorable Senator, very them longer to labor; they are now, at the age of some prominent in the comparisons he had presented, formed seventy-five or eighty years or more, worn out in mind upon the basis just mentioned, and which he, Mr. W., beand body, their memory, like their limbs, torpid, inactive, lieved he could satisfy the Senator himself, and the Senand infirm, compelled to ask the generous aid which they ate, was unsound. New York, at the time of the Revoare assured is prepared for their acceptance; and when at lution, when compared with some other States, was small much trouble and difficulty, they make their appearance in population; and her quota of troops was small in proat your door, they are repulsed with technical exactions, portion to her population. The inhabited portions of and required to specify dates more accurately than any New York, at that early period, were a narrow tract of honest man, it seems to me, could do even in reference to country along the Hudson river, small settlements upon a transaction of but a few years past. Sir, how is it possible the borders of Lake Champlain and Lake George, and a these men can tell the precise day on which they marched limited portion of the lands upon each side of the Moto the field? Ever ready, they waited the signal of alarm; hawk river, extending westwardly from Albany some the first tap of the drum burried them to the muster, and hundred miles, more or less. These were the portions of no man thought of waiting to make a record of the mo- the State then embracing nearly all of the white popula ment; his only desire was to be first at the post of danger; tion. Mr. W. said he spoke from recollection, and from and in such a scene, often repeated, what was there to a very bad recollection as to statistical facts; but he beimprint on the memory that distinction between one month lieved that, at the commencement of the revolutionary and another which, at the lapse of sixty years should ena-war, the population of New York and South Carolina ble it, diseased by age and decayed by time and exercise, were not greatly variant, and that the troops, both reguto recall precise dates? Is not such a regulation equiva-lars and militia, furnished by these States, were not widelent to the open proclamation of your purpose to grant ly different. How was it now? He would assume the no pension but to the man who will perjure himself? Is population of New York to be 2,000,000, and for all the it not to turn away every man who prefers poverty to purposes of the pension law of 1832, the number must crime? While, then, we talk of the "hardships" of pay-be below the fact; and he believed the population of South ing false pretenders to our bounty, let us do justice to Carolina, of all descriptions, to be now about 500,000. those who have had the promise to receive. We are able Is it then fair to compare the number of pensioners upon to make the declining age of these veterans comfortable. the various pension rolls, residing within these two States, We have professed to make provision for them; let us to determine the fairness of the pension applications, or not delude them; let them have something better than the absence of fraud in the grants of pensions made to the "hope deferred." Believing, as I do, that the regulations citizens of each State? Mr. W. said he could not so conof the Department exact more than in many cases an hon-sider the argument. The population of New York had est man can comply with, and, indeed, offer a premium to increased since the revolutionary war, and before the pasperjury, 1 will propose to the Senate, unless the Sena-sage of the act of 1832, more than three times its amount tor from South Carolina will adopt it as a modification, to at the time of the war. It had not been so with the popask for the "regulations" of the Department in relation ulation of South Carolina. The increase in New York to the evidence of claims. had not been solely from the increase of its original popuMr. CHAMBERS then submitted his amendment, which lation. It was not true that the population of New York, was accepted by Mr. PRESTON, as before stated. existing at the time of the Revolution, had multiplied so Mr. WRIGHT said it was not his object to offer any much more rapidly than that of South Carolina; but the opposition to the resolution. On the contrary, he hoped difference had been occasioned by emigration into New it would pass. He thought the statements which had been York from the old States. That emigration was princimade upon the present and former occasion when this pally from the Eastern States; it commenced soon after subject was before the Senate, and the suspicions of frauds the war, and continued until western New York was which were shown to be entertained, had satisfied every principally settled. Mr. W. said his residence was in the member of the body, that some inquiry should be made county of St. Lawrence, the extreme northwestern counwhich would correct the public mind, detect frauds, ty of the State. His recollection was, that settlements if frauds exist, and allay suspicions as to honest appli- were commenced in that county at about the year 1800, cants. He said he would go with the honorable Senator and that the county was organized between that time and to any extent to detect and punish any frauds which might 1804. It was not now a large county in population, relabe found to exist, and he would rather engage in such an tively speaking, and during the war of the Revolution, he inquiry in his own State than in another, because his mo- did not suppose there was an armed white man in it. Still tives would not then be suspected, nor could he be ac- it now presented a somewhat numerous list of revolu cused of designing to cast unjust imputations any where. tionary pensioners. He had been informed that at the He also owed it to himself to remark, that upon a former first court of record held in the county, after the passage occasion, when this subject was under consideration, he of the act of 1832, about seventy of the venerable survi