Senator FESS. He served without salary, as I understand.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that all, Mr. Pickard?

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes; unless there are some questions. Senator DILL. I want to ask some other questions: Mr. Pickard, what is your idea of the policy of the commission regarding short wave lengths?

Commissioner PICKARD. We are delving into short wave lengths this month, and we have had no definite policy on it, more than that we wanted to avoid a jam there such as we have experienced in the broadcasting band, and we are now determining how many of these wave lengths are available and how they may be best used in the public interest.

Senator DILL. Has the commission information as to how many short wave lengths are usable I may say, or have been mastered to the extent that they can be used?

Commissioner PICKARD. Without evading the question, I will say that I would rather it would be answered by Commissioner Caldwell, who has just made a study of it. But I believe there are something like 5,000 short wave lengths there that can be used.

Senator DILL. I asked that question because I know it is only recently that they have been able to master them sufficiently to try to use them.

Commissioner PICKARD. That is true.

Senator DILL. I wondered whether any engineers had reported to you as to the number, or whether they have mastered them to the extent that they can be used.

Commissioner PICKARD. The last report I have seen is that there are in the neighborhood of 5,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Five thousand short wave lengths?

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes, sir; with a possibility of using a great many more providing certain technical arrangements can be made.

Senator DILL. The reason I asked that is that I had a letter some time ago, which was typical of other letters, making certain charges about the commission, and I asked the secretary of the commission to give me the facts, and I want to show you the difference between the charge as made and what the secretary says the facts are: The charge is, that in the short wave band the commission during its tenure in office has granted 47 of these wave lengths to the Radio Corporation of America, and 29 to the Mackay Co., for point to point communication. That letter was dated December 10, 1927. Mr. Butman, at my request, prepared a list of the commercial land stations licensed by the Federal Radio Commission, and in it he says that 56 stations have been licensed in all, and 15 of them to the Radio Corporation, which is very different from the charge. Do you know whether or not other licenses have been granted to the Radio Corporation of America and the Mackay Companies for other than land and water communication purposes?

Commissioner PICKARD. I won't say positively, but I believe not, at least not since November 1. To my knowledge there have been none granted since that date.

Senator DILL. You were secretary previous to that time?
Commissioner PICKARD. Yes, sir.

Senator DILL. And you would probably have known that if it had been so?

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes, sir.

Senator DILL. Do you know how many other licenses have been granted for short wave lengths for purposes other than commercial land stations?

Commissioner PICKARD. No; there have been extensions of licenses but there have been very few new licenses granted. We have been deferring this matter until we could get to it.

Senator DILL. I notice here that in the months of May, June, July, August, September, and October you granted quite a number of licenses. Did you refuse many licenses during that period? Commissioner PICKARD. That is, previous to November 1? Senator DILL. Yes.

Commissioner PICKARD. Admiral Bullard was handling the short wave situation, and those that did not seem to be distinctly in the public interest he deferred action on.

Senator WHEELER. How do you judge them to be in the public interest?

Commissioner PICKARD. It depends largely upon, if it is an experimental license, the background, what they have done in the past and what they propose to do, and their ability to serve.

Senator WHEELER. What do you consider is in the public interest? Commissioner PICKARD. Well, if it is an experimental license, any activity of a pioneering character that will develop knowledge and benefit the public in experimentation.

Senator WHEELER. How many of these stations have the American Telephone & Telegraph Co. got at the present time?

Commissioner PICKARD. I am not sure. I think Senator Dill just

mentioned about that.

Senator DILL. No.

Senator WHEELER. How long have you been secretary of the Federal Radio Commission?

Commissioner PICKARD. Since March 15, 1927; but I have not handled the short waves.

Senator WHEELER. How about the long waves? How many long or short waves have they tied up? I do not know very much about radio, I am frank to say to you, but I would like to know how much of the radio situation is tied up by the American Telephone & Telegraph Co. or the Radio Corporation of America or by any other

trust.

Commissioner PICKARD. In the broadcasting band they own no broadcasting stations.

Senator WHEELER. How is that?

Commissioner PICKARD. They did own WEAF and WRC, but at this time they do not own any broadcasting stations.

Senator DILL. They have sold their stations. I might say that this list shows four short wave length licenses out of 56 as having been issued to the American Telephone & Telegraph Co.

Senator WHEELER. How many?

Senator DILL. Four. These are new ones granted since the Federal Radio Commission was formed.

Senator WHEELER. Is not there a general tie-up of all broadcasting stations in the United States, or practically all of the large stations in the United States to-day?

Commissioner PICKARD. No; there is no tie-up, but they speak of the National Broadcasting Co., which is a radio service, the same as the Associated Press or the United Press services to newspapers, but in this case being to a number of radio stations. But there is no tie-up.

Senator WHEELER. Who composes the National Broadcasting Co., or who controls it?

Commissioner PICKARD. Well, the National Broadcasting Co. does. Senator WHEELER. But who is that? I know it is the National Broadcasting Co., but that is its name, but I want to know who controls it, who is back of it?

Commissioner PICKARD. I do not know the financial interests back

of it.

Senator WHEELER. Well, is not that one of the things that the secretary of the Federal Radio Commission ought to be interested in, to find out whether or not it is in the public interest?

Commissioner PICKARD. As to the service that they are rendering? Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes; our reports from listeners would indicate that it is in the public interest the service they are rendering. Senator WHEELER. Should not you find out who is back of it, what financial interests are back of it?

Commissioner PICKARD. Well, my service as secretary did not put me into an investigation of those things, as a matter of fact. I handled the details and the routine for the commission.

Senator DILL. Has the Federal Radio Commission in its regulations for applications required each station to set out its connected financial interests?

Commissioner PICKARD. No; it has not up to the present time.

Senator DILL. Has the Federal Radio Commission laid down printed regulations as to applications as to what they must contain? Commissionr PICKARD. Our new application form, which goes out this month, requires that information.

The CHAIRMAN. It requires what?

Commissioner PICKARD. A statement of the financial background and structure.

Senator DILL. Of course the Federal Radio Commission has no power to investigate monopoly under the present law. It can only act on questions of monopoly after some court has decided or the Federal Trade Commission, or the Interstate Commerce Commission has decided it. That is the law as written.

Senator WHEELER. They could at least gather the information as they go along to ascertain as to whether it was in the public interest. Senator DILL. Certainly; and that is why I was asking if they had requested that information in the applications. Has the commission secured any information regarding the patent situation as worked out by the Radio Corporation of America with other manufacturers? Commissioner PICKARD. No; I think not.

Senator DILL. What is your view as to the public interest in connection with this contract that the Radio Corporation of America ist enforcing against all manufacturers, requiring them to pay 71⁄2 per

cent royalty to the Radio Corporation of America and, I think, $100,000 in addition, laying aside any objection so long as that is done?

Commissioner PICKARD. Senator, I do not like to be put in the position of evading any question, but as a matter of fact I can not answer that question because I have not studied the patent situation. Senator DILL. Well, is it your view as a radio commissioner that that is a subject in which you should take any interest, or that it is one that you should not go into?

Commissioner PICKARD. My time day and night has been occupied with these other details, and I have had no opportunity to make a study of it, therefore, I can not make an intelligent report on it.

Senator DILL. Has the Federal Radio Commission discussed the advisability of getting the facts on that and considering that in connection with the public interest also?

Commissioner PICKARD. No; we have not gone into the patent situation at all. Our time has been taken up every minute with the broadcasting situation.

Senator DILL. You are aware that there is a very fierce contest between independent manufacturers and the Radio Corporation of America?

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes; I have followed that somewhat in the

press.

Senator DILL. Of course I want to be fair and will say that the law does not give you power to go into investigations fully, but I wondered whether the Federal Radio Commission had done anything to require this information, to get this data in front of it, in order to consider the application of the Radio Corporation of America for licenses and for power as against the applications of independent organizations that were not attempting to restrain trade as I see it to that extent?

Commissioner PICKARD. As yet we have not gone into that situa

tion.

Senator DILL. I want to get one other thing: Have you an opinion as to that question as to its effect on radio in this country?

Commissioner PICKARD. Well, without knowing the entire situation, I hesitate to render an opinion on it at this time, Senator Dill. Senator DILL. I notice in a statement prepared at my request that the stations that are allowed to use immense power in radio broadcasting, with all the crowded channels, are almost entirely stations of the Radio Corporation of America or its affiliated corporations. For instance, there is WJZ, which uses 30,000 watts, being a Radio Corporation of America station; and there is WGY, which uses 50,000 watts, and is a General Electric Co. station; and KDKA, which uses 50,000 watts, and is a Westinghouse Electric & Manufacturing Co. station. These stations, as I understand it, are allowed to operate on these powers even when the general programs are running. Is that true?

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes.

Senator DILL. And then when on the chain there are a lot of stations, within 100 or 200 miles of this station, operating the same program.

Commissioner PICKARD. Yes.

Senator DILL. Has the Federal Radio Commission given consideration to the injustice to the independent station, and the station not connected with the chain, in permitting these powerful stations to broadcast with 50,000 watts on a chain program of this kind?

Commissioner PICKARD. The commission has looked at that situation entirely from the listeners' point of view. The listener a few miles from that station in bad radio weather must have a clear signal if he is going to get anything.

Senator WHEELER. Speak up a little louder, please.

Commissioner PICKARD. For instance, during the last two weeks I have listened in out in the Middle West. On four sets that I used in different places I had to crane to hear anything besides the local programs. In one case the aerial was in a tree, and in another case the batteries were half dead, and in another case the tubes were not all first class. And the average receiving set won't go out and dial a lot of distant stations; they have to depend more or less on the local station.

Senator DILL. Isn't that a justification for the chain program?
Commissioner PICKARD. Yes.

Senator DILL. Well, that being true, what is the use from a listener's standpoint of a chain program carrying a station with 30,000 watts or 50,000 watts of power forcing itself on every dial practically within any reasonable distance?

Commissioner PICKARD. My point of view is that of the remote listener. If I want to hear a program it must come in with sufficient volume to fill my living room. I can not go out and dial distant stations which carry any static and have a respectable program unless that station has sufficient power to come in without interference on the channel.

Senator DILL. A chain program does not require you to go very far.

Commissioner PICKARD. Well, I listened in at different stations in Iowa and Missouri. I could get one station but maybe not well enough to enjoy the program. To lay down a good local program it takes considerable power for all times of year.

Senator DILL. One of my reasons for asking this question is this: There have been complaints from New Jersey that 30,000 watts are charged against them for WJZ, whereas its studio is in New York City, and they in New Jersey are refused certain privileges of increasing power or having additional stations because there is too much broadcasting power used in their section now. I wondered whether the Federal Radio Commission had thought of the local listener there and his desire for local programs.

Commissioner PICKARD. We are thinking of the local listener there, and they are well served. There is no question but that they can get a good choice of service. It is the remote listener that I am thinking of that can not get a program unless it is carried to him with sufficient power.

Senator DILL. Coming back to the short-wave length question: Has the Federal Radio Commission any idea of what it is going to do with these applications for point to point work as compared with television or photographic transmission?