A D Difference betwixt us, was left to the I believe, Sir, I could run this Detail much farther back; but I think what I have faid is fufficient to convince the Houfe that this Part of the Hon. Gentleman's Argument is by no means conclufive; for if we are to wait till a final Negotiation is concluded with Iberia, we are like to wait for ever. a Word or two more, in answer to what fell from the Hon. Gentleman with regard to the Indecency of our addreffing for Papers that relate to a This is Negotiation not yet finished. an Argument, Sir, that I own has had of late great Weight with this House; and I do believe that formerly it was not very usual to address for such Papers. But, Sir, I must at the fame time obferve that formerly our Negotiations were quite of a different Kind from what they feem now. Our B Forefathers acted with Refolution, they acted with Prudence, they did not fuffer themselves to be deceived by the outward Proteftations, or undermined by the fecret Treachery of their Enemies; therefore the firft No-C tice which the Public commonly had of a Negotiation, was by its being notified to the Senate that it was concluded: So that, Sir, it was almost impoffible for them to call for any Papers relating to a Negotiation that was depending. But we, Sir, have got But, Sir, I must beg Leave to trouinto a new Method of Treaty-making; ble the House with one Reason more we are always negotiating, but we never conclude. We have, Sir, been why I am for the prefent Motion. If we may give any Credit to our pubnegotiating with Iberia thefe 20 Moons, without making one definitive Treaty lic News-papers, and to common Rethat has not been broken before the E port, Senate could have an Opportunity of calling for any Papers relating to it. For the Breach that followed (fuch was our Policy) always gave Rife to new Negotiations, which were fet on Foot before the next Meeting of the Senate; then, Sir, when we called for Papers relating to the former Negotiation, we were told that these Papers related to the Negotiation in dependance, and that therefore they were very unfit to be communicated to the Houfe; his Majesty would take it amifs; the Iberians would be difpleafed, if we called for them before the Negotiation was concluded. This, Sir, I take to be the very Cafe now; the Treaty of Sebfule, tho' called a definitive Treaty, was indeed as properly a preliminary Treaty as the Convention; for the most material Points, Sir, that then created the our Minifters have met with great Difficulties in obtaining from Iberia even this Convention, poor as it appears to be; nay, Sir, if fome People are not very much misinformed, we could have had better Terms from Iberia eight Moons ago than we have got by this Convention. Now, Sir,. what Indignation muft it raife in the Breast of every confidering Man, who reflects that the vaft Preparations and Expences we have been at, have had no Effect but to our own G Detriment! To what, Sir, can this be attributed? It must be to one of two Caufes: The firft is, that it is poffible Iberia may have fo thorough a Contempt of us, as to tell us, that if we will be but peaceable and quiet, H fhe will do fomething for us from pure good Will; but that we are to expect no Terms, except the most difhonourable and difadvantageous, if we shoul prete: 1 pretend to do ourfelves Juftice by our Arms. If that, Sir, is the Cafe, we are in a more miferable Situation than any People under the Sun; because there is no People, Sir, however weak, whofe Resentment is not in fome de- A gree or other regarded, even by Powers vaftly fuperior to themselves. But, Sir, it would feem that we are reduced to fo defpicable a Situation, that, tho' we are in a Condition to do ourselves Juftice, and tho' we may be at an immenfe Expence in putting ourselves in that Condition, yet our Enemies know fo well that we dare not make ufe of our Power, that they defpife and infult us for making fuch vain Preparations. This, Sir, is a very fingular, and I believe an unparalleled Cafe. ment by the Senate, even the Imperial Pardon cannot be pleaded by the Minifter, because it is prefumed that the fame Influence which committed the Crime, procured likewife the Pardon. But, Sir, the Abuse of this invaluable Privilege in our Constitution has been attended with very bad Confequences; it has been seen, Sir, that Majesty itfelf has been wounded under the Colour of taking a lawful Liberty with the Minister. I am far from infinua. ting, Sir, that this was the Intention of the Hon. Clinab who spoke laft, and for whom I have the greatest Respect and Efteem. But, Sir, Gentlemen, who are not fo well acquainted with the Hon. Gentleman's Worth and Candour as I am, may be apt to But this Behaviour of Iberia, Sir, conftrue his Words fo as that the Emmay be attributed to another Caufe; it peror is a mere Cypher in the State, may proceed from our Miniftry being and has no Affections, no Paffions, no fo earnest to obtain fome Treaty of o- Understanding, no Difcernment; in ther, that, rather than want one, they fhort, that he fees only with the Eyes were willing to take up with the very of the Minifter. This, Sir, I think, worft that could be offered; that when D is erring in a very dangerous Extreme the Senate met, they might fay fome on the other Hand. I am afraid, Sir, thing had been done in confequence this Opinion has been too industriously of the vast Expences we had been at. propagated, and too fuccefsfully aBut, Sir, it is impoffible for us to mongit those who are unacquainted with know any thing certainly of this the true Nature of our Conftitution. Affair without agreeing to the prefent I am apt to believe, Sir that an EmMotion, which I heartily give my peror, if he had no Minifter near him Voice for. to confult with, might very easily fee that it was a very difrefpectful Way of proceeding in a Senate, to call for Papers that relate to a Negotiation not yet concluded. An Emperor, Sir, must be very weak who does not perceive that this, in effect, takes the Management of the Negotiation out of his and his Miniftry's Hands. He was anfwered by Wimgul Yegon, T E F G IS no doubt with very good Reason that our Confiitution looks upon the Conduct of the Government, even tho' approv'd of by the Sovereign, as the Act of the Minifter, becaufe, as by our Law, the Emperor can do no Wrong, it is always prefum'd that every wrong Step that is taken in Government is fuggefted by the Minifter, and that if it receives the Sanction of the Imperial H Name, fuch Sanction has been proCured by finifter Means by Means; and the The Hon. Clinab, Sir, has with great Art given us the Reasons that determine him to agree to this Motion: But I think, Sir, he has not given us one Reafon against what was urged by my Hon. Friend who fits near me, why we ought to look on the Papers now mov'd to be addreffed for, as relating to a Negotiation not yet concluded. He has, indeed, told us, that the Conven He A D do with the Affair now before us. - has likewife told us, that the Iberians not fulfilling the Treaty of Sebfule gave Rife to this Convention, which he allows to be the Preliminary of a definitive Treaty. But, Sir, the Argument the Hon. Clinab would draw from thefe Premises must be very inconclufive with any Man who confiders with Attention, and reflects on the different Changes that have happened in the Affairs of Degulia fince the Conclufion of the Treaty of Sebfule. IfB the Iberians, Sir, have broke their Faith with us, they have been prompted, they have been encouraged to it by Incidents impoffible to be foreseen by our Miniftry at the Conclufion of that Treaty; therefore, Sir, I think C our Ministry are not accountable for fuch an Event. All, Sir, we are to confider of their Conduct is, whether they have acted with Prudence according to the different Situations, and the different Exigencies of Affairs as they prefented. If it fhall be found, Sir, that they have acted in this Manner, I think they ought to be justified, tho' the Convention were a worfe Measure than it is. Therefore, Sir, I think it is not quite fo fair for Gentlemen to argue upon a Suppofition that the Con. E vention is a bad Measure, before it is proved to be fo, and before they confider whether it is not the best Terms it was poffible for us to obtain in the present Situation of Affairs betwixt us and Iberia. Gentlemen ought to confider, Sir, that when a Treaty is confented to by one Power, it is confented to on the Faith that it will be punctually obferved by the other contracting Power; but, Sir, if the other contracting Power fhall think fit to break it, they alone are anfwerable for it. This is exactly the Cafe of our Ministry with Iberia. She has thought fit to violate the most folemn Treaties, Treaties that were made before, I believe, any of our Ministers were born. But, Sir, are our Minifters accountable for what she does, either from Intereft or Caprice? They endeavoured, Sir, to bind her by o F G H ther Treaties which are still unfulfill'd, but which, on Examination, were judged, if they had been fulfilled, to be for the Honour and Interest of this Empire. Upon this, Sir, it was found expedient not to plunge the Nation into an expenfive and unequal War, therefore the milder Methods of Negotiation were again attempted. This was all that this Houfe underftood by presenting the Refolutions we came to laft Seffion to his Majesty. We did not mean, Sir, by these Refolutions, to tye the Ministry down to enter into an immediate War; they were intended, as the Hon. Gentleman well obferves, to ferve as a Direction to the Miniftry in the fucceeding Part of their Negotiation: But how does it appear to the Hon. Gentleman that they have not? We have, fays he, got a preliminary Treaty inftead of a definitive one. Give me Leave to ask that Gentleman, Sir, if there was any thing in thefe Refolutions that ty'd our Miniftry's Hands from making a preliminary Treaty till fuch time as a definitive one could be drawn up? If there is not, Sir, wherein are our Minifters to blame, if they have concluded a preliminary Treaty, in which a strict Regard has been had to the Refolutions of the Senate? If the Situation of Affairs betwixt Iberia and us abfolutely required that we fhould accept of this preliminary Treaty, can the Hon. Gentleman pretend, that the Ends for which we came to the Refolutions he has mentioned, have not been aníwered? But, says the Hon. Gentleman, why was this a preliminary Treaty, and not a definitive one? Did we not furnish Money enough? Have we not fitted out Fleets ftrong enough to oblige Iberia to accept of a definitive Treaty on reasonable Terms? I think, Sir, that this Objection admits of a very plain Answer. The Refolutions of a Senate, and its Proceedings, Sir, are founded on the Interefts of the Empire, as they appear from her Laws, her Conftitution, and her Treaties with other Powers: But Minifters, Sir, have a harder Task : they -on C are tyed down to the Refolutions of the ver to offer our Advice to his Majesty, Senate, and at the fame time they and that we are to wink at every thing are obliged to confider how far the In- the Miniftry fhall do. I think, Sir, terest of their Prince and the Empire the Greatness of our Emperor depends may be affected by other Circumftan- on his always acting in concurrence ces, which the Senate, let their Inten with the Senate, and that the Safety tions be never fo upright, and their A of this Empire confifts in our having it Difcernment never fo juft, can have always in our Power to cenfure the no Opportunity of knowing. Thefe Conduct of wicked Minifters. But Circumftances, Sir, may depend on at the fame time, Sir, we are not to the Characters of those with whom prefcribe the Manner in which his Mathey are to negotiate, and the Difpo- jelly is to act, nor, under the Pretence fitions that are made at other Courts B of calling wicked Minifters to account, for entering into, or ftrengthening, Al- are we to perfecute or opprefs good liances. They may depend, Sir, ones. But, fays the Hon. Gentleman, Intrigues which they who are at a di- "if our Minifters had real Difficulties ftance can have no Notion of, and to to ftruggle with, if they met with unwhich, perhaps, a little muft be yield reafonable Opposition, why ought this ed in order to gain a great deal. For to be concealed from the Senate? The thefe Reasons, Sir, it would be the most Senate can make Allowances for that, abfurd Thing in the World in us to find the Senate will even applaud them, if Fault with our Minifters for any Mea- they have dextrously furmounted those fure they fhall enter into, unless we are Obstacles; and therefore thefe Papers abfolutely fure that they had none of ought to be laid before us, that we the Difficulties I have mentioned to en- may know the true State of the whole counter with. 'Tis likewife for this D Affair." Sir, I am of Opinion, that, Reason, Sir, that our Conftitution has before there is Occafion for our calling vefted the Crown with the Prerogative for any Papers whatsoever relating of making Peace or War; because it to this Negotiation, we ought to con-never can be prefumed that we, who fider if the preliminary Treaty which are confin'd to an Ifland, who can know has been concluded in confequence of nothing but from Hearfay, whofe Deg it, is, or is not a proper Measure in itliberations are fo flow, and whofe pub- felf: If we find, Sir, that it is a proper lick Capacity determines at a certain Measure; if we find, Sir, that it anPeriod, can be thoroughly inftructed fwers all the Intentions of the Refoluin every Particular that may make tions we prefented to his Majefty last more vigorous or more peaceful Mea- Seffion, where is the Neceffity, Sir, fures neceflary. But, Sir, fhould this where is the Expediency of calling for . Houfe always affume to itself, without any Papers at all? If on the other having regard to any of thefe Confi- hand it should be found a destructive derations, a Power of cenfuring the Measure, we are at Liberty to do as Measures of the Miniftry for not act- we think proper; and his Majesty ing strictly up to what they conceive will doubtle's have a great Regard to would have been proper; fhould we on our Sentiments and Representations. all Occafions, Sir, prefcribe Rules to G the Miniftry in what Manner their Negotiations are to be carried on, and on w hat Terms they are to infift; I think it would be very hard for Gentlemen to point out wherein the Prerogative of the Crown confifts in making Peace or War. I hope, Sir, I fhall not be miftaken, as if I meant that we are ne I cannot help, obferving, Sir, that had the Convention been a definitive instead of a preliminary Treaty, the Hon. Gentleman, according to his own Way of arguing, would have had no Pretence for agreeing to the prefent H Motion. Had it been a definitive Treaty, the Queftion then, Sir, it feems, would have been upon the Merits of the Treaty itself; but as it is a preliminary preliminary one, the Queftion now is not about the Merlt of the Treaty, but upon those Steps that were taken previous to it. I am not inclined to anticipate the Debate upon the Convention, by pointing out the fmall Difference that is betwixt it and a definitive Treaty Give me Leave to fay, Sir, that the Foundation that is therein laid for a definitive Treaty is entirely agreeable to the Refolutions of this House, and I dare venture to fay, that when it fhall come to be confidered, Gentlemen will think it the beit Mert fure that could have been puriued in our prefent Circumstances. A D E felf at Liberty to form any decifive upon the ReJudgment of that Affair port of the Committee, any more than the Hon. Gentleman thinks himfelf at Liberty to form fuch a Judg. ment of the Convention on the Report of the Ministry. The Reafon of this, Sir, will be evident to any Man who confiders what a vaft Difference there is betwixt feeing Things, of which we are to be the Judges, with our own Eyes, and feeing them with the Eyes of other Men. I own, Sir, that I am not fo well acquainted with the Interefts of our Court, with regard to our Neighbours, as the Hon. Gentleman who fpoke laft feems to be; but however juft the Claims we may have are in themselves, I think it would be againft every Maxim of found Policy to revive any manner of Difference that may be betwixt us and any of our Neighbours at this Juncture. I own, Sir, that I am not of the Hon. Gentleman's Sentiments, when he said that the fooner we oblige the Blefufcudians to come to a Decla ration either one Way or other, the better for this Empire. I think, Sir, that if we gave Blefufcu any Handle to join Iberia on this Occafion, it may tend much to our Detriment. We very may flatter ourselves, Sir, as much as we pleafe, with the Thoughts of our being invincible; but every Gentleman, who reflects how much our Trade was ruin'd by the Privateers of that Nation in the lat War, will give his Voice against this Empire's being again expofed to the like Calamities, if we can confiftently and with our own Honour avoid it. But, fays the Hon. Clinab, why may we not appoint a Committee o Secrecy for perufing the Papers to be addreffed for, who fhall make fuch Extracts from C them as are proper for the Information of this Houfe? I am very far, Sir, from questioning the Honour of any Gentleman who may be of fuch Committee, or from thinking that they could be capable of making any bad Ufe of thefe Papers: But, Sir, I am humbly of Opinion, that fuch an Expedient would be far from answering the Ends propofed by the Hon. Gentleman. A Committee of Secrecy might, indeed, fat.sfy themfelves, but I cannot fee how any Information from them can be fatisfactory to the reft of the House. The Hon. Gentleman himself fays, that he can form a right Judgment of the Convention no other way than by feeing and perufing thefe Papers; but, Sir, if the Hon. Gentleman himself were not of that Committee, he must be fatisfied with the Report of the Committee, fo that he can have it only at fecond-hand. Befides, Sir, The Hon. Gentleman, Sir, took up there may be fuch a Connection be- my worthy Friend who fits near me, for twixt thofe Matters that are improper faying "that we enjoy many Branchto be communicated to the Houfe, and es of our Commerce unrivall'd and unthose that are neceffary for our Infor- complain'd of by our Neighbours." mation, that the Extracts must be mang- Sir, I can't help being of this Opiniled, incoherent and unintelligible. For on, efpecially when I confider the late my Part, Sir, if an Affair happened vaft Increase of our Shipping, and the where it was abfolutely neceffary that Extenfion of our Trade. These two Papers fhould be communicated from H Particulars, Sir, are undeniable, and the Crown for the better Information must be evident to any Man who has of this Houfe, I fhould not think my- liv'd long enough to be able to com G pare |