The incidents, I acknowledge, are very great; but deduct 23,000l. the expence incurred by the new cuftom-house, and they are brought into a more moderate compais.-We are ftill endeavouring to cut them down further, and if any gentleman will point out a fingle article in that account of incidents, now lying on your table, where a faving can be made, I fhall be ready hereafter to fuffer any cenfure the Houfe can devise, if such saving be not made.

The next objects taken notice of by the Right Honourable Gentlemen are, the falaries of the fuperannuated officers. These falaries arife from two funds, one is a fubfcription amongst the officers themselves, from which every man who has been a subscriber for seven years is entitled to an annuity proportioned to his rate of fubfcription. The Right Honourable Gentleman will fee that this is the private property of the officers themfelves, purchased. with their own money, and over which parliament can have no controul.

The other fund is the common incidents.-As to the penfions. granted on this, I confefs I agree with the Right Honourable Gentleman that many of them are very great abufes. Of late, it is grown a fashion for men to get out upon their full falaries: moft people would rather be paid for doing nothing, than for doing fomething. For my own part, I should like it very well myself; but at the fame time I know that while I am able to do my duty I ought to be compelled to do it. I agree with the Right Honourable Gentleman, as to the period of fervice which should entitle a man to be fuperannuated on his full falary: forty years was fixed by Sir William Ofborne, when firft I went into the revenue, but foon after that rule was broken through, and men of all ftandings allowed to enjoy their otium. However, I must fay that if the board had not frequently remonitrated with government against this practice, the number on the lit would have been double at this day. If there are now upon it 343 numbers, as the Right Honourable Gentleman has ftated, many of them are widows, who were put upon it by the humanity of Lord Buckingham; during his adminiftration the widows fund failed, and if he had not been graciously pleased to interfere for their relief, these poor people must have itarved.

The Right Honourable Gentleman feems to think land-carriage officers utelefs, but I can affure him they are a very neceffary iet of men. Their duty is to watch the avenues of great cities, and fee that all excifeable goods have permits; and the very reafon why they do not make feizures is, because their vigilance is known to be fo great, that fimugglers will not run the risk of bringing their goods patt them. However, if land-carriage officers make few feizures, it is amply compenfated by another fet of men, who have no falaries at all, but what arife from a fund created by them

felves-the preventive officers: Thefe men have made very confi-derable feizures indeed.

Mr. Beresford then proceeded to the hearth-money; pointed out the abuses that had obtained in that department, and the remedies that had been applied; from which he went on to the article of revenue cruizers, agreeing with Mr. Grattan in what he had faid concerning them: He alfo agreed with him as to the neceffity of collectors refiding within their districts, and as to the propriety of deferving officers being promoted in fucceffion, and the mode propofed of paying furveyors general: In a word, he agreed with the whole of Mr. Grattan's plan of regulation, fave only as to cuftom officers, who, he faid, were officers by the common law, were abfolutely neceffary, and ought not to be abolished.

Mr. Secretary Hamilton explained more fully the duty of cuftom officers, who are the only persons that can adminifter an oath, take bond, grant cockets, or in a word, do the long-room bufinefs.

Mr. Prime Serjeant.-The Right Honourable Gentleman has ftated a very alarming fum indeed, as incurred by law expences; but I must explain that bufinefs.

If unfortunately two or three fuits have been determined against the crown; if damages to the amount of 5000l. or 6000l. have in fuch fuits been awarded; these fums will go a great way in making up that large one which has been stated by the Right Honourable Gentleman again. If the number of acts which the law fervants of the crown are obliged every fellion to prepare, have of late been doubled, though each of them cofts no more than a private act of parliament, can it be supposed that the expence will not increase? And I know of no expedient to stop it, except it be to unite three or four bills in one.

I would not have it imagined that the law officers of the crown have raised their fees, they have not; my directions to the crown folicitor have been, to charge the fame fees that were established twenty years ago, when Mr. Tifdal came into office, and I am certain he always has adhered to thofe directions.

I have been now fourteen years a law officer to the crown, and I do moft folemnly declare, that during that time I never was employed in any caufe on behalf of the crown, that I should not have been much better paid, had I been employed in the fame caufe on behalf of the fubject.

The Attorney General.-I object to this refolution as an attack on the legal prerogative of the crown, and as a cenfure upon the' exercife of that prerogative. The Right Honourable Gentleman knows that by common law the crown can appoint thofe officers; he knows that they are recognized by the act of cuftoms, and that the act of cuftoms authorizes even the Lord Lieutenant and coun

cil to establish them, and grant additional falaries where they fhall think neceffary. The Right Honourable Gentleman feems to allow that there has not been any abufe of this power, but thinks hereafter there may, and that mafqued penfions may thus be granted. If there had been any abuse, I am convinced that the Right Honourable Gentleman would be ready to fix a proper cenfure on it, and if there thall hereafter, this Houfe will not let it pafs unnoticed; but at prefent it is confeffed, that there is no caufe for the Commons to interfere, or by a general refolution inhibit the exercise of the legal prerogative of the crown. It would be abfurd to forbid the crown to grant what law authorizes; or for us to fet up a general refolution of one eftate of parliament, against the law of the land.

As to the law expences of the crown, I must fay, that the falaries of its officers are not very enormous; till within these few minutes I did not know what the annual amount of mine is, I find it is from feventy to eighty pounds; but I affure the Houfe, that when I had the honour of being placed in my prefent station, the idea of emolument never entered my head: From the little experience I have had, I perceive the business is the most laborious that can be conceived; and I declare that I would not submit to the drudgery of it, was I to receive ten times the fum from the fubject, who indeed always pays lawyers much more liberally than they are paid by the crown.

Mr. Mafon faid, after having had a committee appointed to prepare a plan for the better collecting of the revenue, after inveftigating the fubject with great ability, and after having, with much candour, acknowledged that the commiflioners had acted to the beft of the powers vefted in them, the Right Hon. Gentleman now produces his first refolution, which has nothing to fay to the collecting of the revenue at all.

The fubject has been fo fully and fo ably handled by my Right Honourable Friend, that I shall detain the Houfe only to make one obfervation. It is acknowledged that the crown has not abufed its power; but if any abuse had prevailed in granting additional falaries to custom-houfe officers, it would have been right to point out that particular abufe, and to remonftrate against it; but it never can be right to fet up a vote of the Commons in the face of legal prerogative, and against the law of the land.

Sir Lucius O'Brien.-I confefs myfelf extremely mortified and difappointed, when I find that all the fagacity of the Right Hon. Gentleman is not fufficient to point out any effectual favings in the revenue, by which the income of this country may be equalized to her expence. In the beginning of this fellion, when it was propofed to effect that neceffary end, by a reduction of the military eftablishment, the Right Honourable Gentleman oppofed

the motion, and faid that great favings might be made in the revenue. It now appears that very little, if any, can, for the gentlemen who prefide at that board have left him very little to do in the way of reform. I think too much praise cannot be given to thofe gentlemen; I myfelf have been a witnefs of the exertions made by one of them, who in perfon undertook a tour through a great part of the kingdom, to rectify abufes in the collection of the revenue. In the county that I had the honour to reprefent, I know he did put down two riding officers that he deemed unneceffary; and I have good reafon to fuppofe that he acted with the fame juftice to the public throughout.

But though the refolutions propofed by the Right Honourable Gentleman do not go fo far as I could with, yet as they do fomething towards retrenchment, I think the committee ought to pafs them; nor can I fee any impropriety in parliament interfering in the management of the customs, which were by parliament granted to the crown for the purpose of enabling it to guard the feas. It has never been thought improper for parliament to oppofe open penfions; why then should it be thought improper for parliament to oppofe the granting away of money deftined for another purpofe, in mafqued penfions? And though we do not find that the crown has ftretched this prerogative to any great length, yet ftill the nation may claim a reverfionary faving when thefe falaries fhall fall in by the death of the prefent poffeffors.

Mr. Beresford faid, that the duty of coaft officers was to ride along the fhore daily, to obferve, and to give notice of the approach of fhipping; by which means, if they did their duty, (and he knew no use in any officer who did not do his duty) they became the most useful informers in the kingdom. As to the perfons mentioned by the Right Honourable Baronet as being difplaced by him, they were reduced on the fifths of their falary; and the reafon was, that, though they were called coaft officers, in the whole course of their ride, which was through bye roads and narrow lanes, there was not one fingle view of the Jea.

Sir Lucius faid, he had not mentioned the circumftance for any other purpose than to do honour to the commiflioner, who in that intance had fhewn, that he was ready to make retrenchment wherever retrenchment could be made. He was also happy to declare, that all the regulations now offered, except the first, had the concurrence and affiftance of the Right Honourable Gentleman.

Mr. Grattan replied to all that had been faid, and Mr. Beresford entered into further explanation; but nothing new was offered.

Mr. Grattan's firft refolution, viz. for reftraining the preroga-. tive in granting falaries to cuftom-houfe officers, was negatived

without a divifion. All the others being only as matters of regulation, paffed unanimously.

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 1784.

A meffage from the Lords, that their lordships, with some amendments, had agreed to feveral bills.

Mr. Foster moved, that the committee on the bill for the better fecuring leafes made by arch-bishops and bishops, fhould receive a claufe relative to church-wardens.-Committee empowered accordingly.

Mr. Holmes moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the bill for regulating the jails.

The Houfe accordingly refolved itself into a committee, Mr. Holmes in the chair.

The bill was read through, claufe by claufe, and as foon as the Speaker had taken the chair, reported by Mr. Holmes.

Lord Delvin moved, that the infolvent bill fhould be read a third time.

The Speaker objected, as fome gentlemen who meant to oppose it, were abfent.

Lord Delvin thought it hard that the bill fhould be postponed, because gentlemen were abfent, fince they ought to be prefent.

After fome converfation, the bill was read a third time.

A petition was prefented of Lord Clanbraffil and Mr. M'Cartney, against the Attorney General's bill, for the better fecuring the properties of fuitors in the Courts of Chancery and Exchequer, as transferring the fums at prefent lodged in their hands, to the bank of Ireland, would be prejudicial to their interests.

Right Honourable John Ponsonby moved an addrefs of the House to his Grace the Lord Lieutenant, to fignify to his Majesty the humble request of this Houfe, that 5000, be granted to aid the proteftant charter fchools of this kingdom.

Mr. Fofter oppofed it, as there had been too many grants of the kind made this feffion.

The Provost faid, he was not against the addrefs, but was inclined to think that fuch grants were not well applied. Hefaid that when Mr. Howard was in this kingdom, after he had taken a circuit throughout the Charter Schools thereof, he had a converfation with that gentleman, whence he grounded his fufpicion; and concluded, by declaring, that if no other member of the House took up the fubject, he would the next feffion