Mr. Scott greatly approved the interference of the chair, and declared, that it had prevented his rifing to the fame purpose.

Mr. Bube faid, the refolution required time to confider it; it involved much matter: he recollected, indeed, our fending 4000 men to die in the Weft Indies, at a time when we dared not fend a throud to bury them in. Why, continued he, do we appoint a committee of accounts, if we do their business before they meet?

Mr. Pelham—I do not hesitate to declare, that I am an enemy to previous queftions whenever they can be avoided. I think they fhould not be propofed.-I would almoft at any time, rather meet a motion in the first inftance, than get rid of it in this way; and if ever there was a queftion that I was ready and defirous to enter upon immediately, it is the prefent, for I concur in the intention of it;-befides I feel myfelf fo flattered and encouraged by the manner in which the Hon. Gentleman has fpoken of the miniftry here, and in England, whom he has promised to support, if their views and purfuits be fuch as he approves; that nothing but the neceffary forms of, prevents my now concurring in the motion, as propofed by the Honourable Baronet. But no injury can poflibly refult from our poffefling all poffible information, and in this kingdom you have an advantage, which they have not in England, that of feeing the accounts of the two last years, by which you are with certainty directed in your future provifions. Now, Sir, if the Honourable Baronet will make his motion, an inftruction to the committee of accounts, I have no objection to it; on the contrary, I would wish to be confidered as a friend to its views and principles;-but I think it would be very unbecoming to make any declaration, till the Honourable Gentlemen who have managed public finances at the different boards for two years paft, fhall have produced and explained their accounts; and from their known diligence and great abilities, I have the higheft expectation of affiftance in making all poffible retrenchment.

The Prime-Serjeant (Mr. Kelly) declared his diflike to the previous queftion, and that at a proper time, he would fupport the motion of the Honourable Baronet, but for the prefent, he thought the best way to get rid of it by an amendment, "That the committee of accounts not having yet made their report, the motion was premature."

Mr. Majon could not conceive how a gentleman fhould fo much diflike the previous queftion, and yet be ready to fubftitute a paraphrafe on the previous queftion. He faid he was as much a friend to the fpirit of the refolution as any man, and pledged himfelf, that at a proper time he would fupport it, but at this time, he faid, it could not be entered on without a manifeft breach of parliamentary order;-for there was a ftanding rule, that no fupply could be granted till after the committee of accounts had made their report.

Mr. Grattan. I fhall not trouble you long, nor take up the time of the Houfe, by apologizing for bodily infirmity, or the af fectation of infirmity.-I fhall not fpeak of myfelf, or enter into a defence of my character, having never apoftatized.-I think it is not neceffary for the House now to investigate what we know to be fact. I think it would be better to go into the bufinefs, as the House did upon another occafion, without waiting the formality of the committee's report.-As to my felf, the honourable reward that a grateful nation has beftowed upon me, for ever binds me to make every return in my power, and particularly to oppofe every unneceflary expence. I am far from thinking with the Honourable Gentleman, as to the fpeech, and I believe he will find inftances where œconomy has been recommended from the throne, but prodigality practifed. This was the cafe in Lord Harcourt's adminiItration. An administration which had the support of the Hon. Gentleman, and therefore he, of all men, cannot be at a lofs to reject that illufory œconomy, which has fo often appeared in the speeches of Lord Lieutenants. With refpect to the Genevefe, I never could have thought it poffible to give the speech fuch a bias as has been mentioned, and that people will be deceived, if they give credit to any declamation that infers from the words of the fpeech, any thing but an honeft economy in applying the public money fairly to their use. The nation has derived great honour from this tranfaction, and I would be forry to have it tarnished by inference and infinuation.

In 1771, when the burdens of the country were comparatively fmall, I made a motion fimilar to this; the Hon. Gentleman then oppofed me, I have his fanction, now, that I was right, and he was wrong; and I fay this, that though gentlemen may for a while vote against retrenchments, they will at laft fee the neceffity of them, Yet while I think retrenchment abfolutely neceffary, I am not very fure that this is juft the time to make it in the army, -now when England has acted juftly, I will not fay generously, -now when she has loft her empire-when the ftill feels the wounds of the last unhappy war, and comforts herself only with the faithful friendship of Ireland, If in 1769, when the liberties of Ireland were denied, and thofe of America in danger, it was thought unadviseable to retrench our army, there can be no fuch reafon to reduce it now, when both are acknowledged and confirmed. When we voted 4000 men to butcher our brethren in America, the Hon. Gentleman fhould have oppofed that vote; but perhaps he will be able to explain the propriety of fending 4000 Irish men thither. But why not look for retrenchment in the revenue and other departments. In my mind, the proper mode would be, to form a fair eftimate of what would be a reasonable peace establishment, and reduce our feveral departments to it.

Mr. Flood.-The Right Honourable Member can have no doubt of the propriety of my faying a word in reply to what he has de

livered; every member in the Houfe can bear witness of the infirmity I mentioned, and therefore, it required but little candour to make a nocturnal attack upon that infirmity; but I am not afraid ofthe Right Honourable Member, I will meet him any where, or upon any ground, by night or by day.I would ftand poorly in my own eflimation, and in my country's opinion, if I did not ftand far above him. -I do not come here dreffed in a rich wardrobe of words to delude the people-I am not one who has promifed repeatedly to bring in a bill of rights, yet does not bring in that bill or permit any other person to do it-I am not one who threatened to impeach the Chief Juftice of the King's Bench for acting under an English law, and afterwards fhrunk from that bufinefs-I am not the author of the fimple repeal-I am not one who, after faving the parliament was a parliament of profitutes, endeavoured to make their voices fubfervient to my intereft-I am not one who would come at midnight, and attempt by a vote of this Houfe to fuifle the voice of the people, which my egregious folly had raised against me-I am not the gentleman who fubfifts upon your accounts-I am not the mendicant patriot who was bought by my country for a fum of money, and then fold my country for prompt paymentt-I am not the man who in this Houfe loudly complained of an infringement made by England, in including Ireland in a bill, and then fent a certificate to Dungannon that Ireland was not included-I never was bought by the people, nor ever fold them; the gentleman fays, he never apoftatized, but I fay I never changed my principles; let every man fay the fame, and let the people believe them if they can. But if it be fo bad a

thing to take an office in the ftate, how comes the gentleman connected with perfons in office? They, I hope, are men of virtue, or how came the gentleman fo clofely connected with Colonel Fitzpatrick: I object to no man for being in office; a patriot in office is the more a patriot for being there. There was a time when the glories of the great Duke of Marlborough fhrunk and withered before thofe of the Right Honourable Gentleman; when palaces fuperior to Blenheim were to be built for his reception, when pyramids and pillars were to be raised, and adorned with emblems and infcriptions facred to his virtue; but the pillars and pyramids are now funk, though then the great Earl of Chatham was held inferior to him; however, he is ftill fo great, that the queen of France, I dare fay, will have a fong made on the name of Grattan,

Lord Harcourt practifed œconomy-but what was the œconomy of the Duke of Portland?-100,000'. was voted to raise 20,000 feamen, tho' it was well known that one-third of that number could not be raited - and what was the application of the money? It was applied to the railing of the execrated fencibles.

It is faid I fupported Lord Harcourt's adminiftration; it is true, but I never deferted my principles, but carried them into the cabinet with me. A gentleman, who now hears me, knows that I propofed to the privy council an Irish mutiny bill, and that not with a view of any parliamentary grant. I fupported an absentee tax; and while I was in office, registered my principles in the books of government; and the moment I could not influence government to the advantage of the nation, I ceafed to act with them. I acted for myfelf-I was the firft who ever told them that an Irish mutiny bill must be granted. If this country is now fatisfied, is it owing to that gentleman? No, the fimple repeal, difapproved and fcouted by all the lawyers in England and in Ireland, fhews the contrary; and the only apology he can make is, that he is no lawyer at all. A man of warm imagination and brilliant fancy will fometimes be dazzled with his own ideas, and may for a moment fall into error; but a man of found head could not make fo egregious a mistake, and a man of an honest heart would not perfift in it after it was difcovered. I have now done -and give me leave to fay, if the gentleman enters often into this kind of colloquy with me, he will not have much to boaft of at the end of the feffion,

Mr. Grattan. In refpect to the Houfe, I could wish to avoid perfonality, and return to the queftion, but I muft request liberty to explain fome circumstances alluded to by the Hon. Member; the Hon. Member has alluded to St. Chriftopher's bill, I will declare the fact he may tell a story-when I received a copy of that bill, it gave me much pain and much offence; I thought I faw the old intention of binding Ireland by English laws; 1 therefore fpoke to that effect in this houfe, I alfo fhewed the bill to all the most able and virtuous men in this kingdom, who were of opinion that my fuggeftion was wrong, under this opinion I acquiefced, and the opinion has juftified it: as to my coming at midnight to obtain a vote, impofing filence on the people, I deny it; it was miftated in the papers, my refolution was to declare this country free, and that any person who fhould fpeak or write to the contrary, was a public enemy. All the Houfe, all the revered and refpected characters in the kingdom heard me, and know what I fay is true. But it is not the flander of the bad tongue a bad character that can defame me, I maintain my reputation in public and in private life; no man who has not a bad character can fay I ever deceived him, no country has ever called me cheat. I will fuppofe a public character, a man not now in this House, but who formerly might have been here.—I will suppose it was his conftant practice to abuse every man who differed from him, and to betray every man who trufted him; I will fuppofe him active, I will begin from his cradle, and divide his life into three stages,

of

in the firft he was intemperate, in the fecond corrupt, and in the third feditious.

Suppofe him a great egotift, his honour equal to his oath, and I will ftop him and fay, Sir, your talents are not fo great as your life is infamous; you were filent for years, and you were filent for money: when affairs of confequence to the nation were debating, you might be feen paffing by thefe doors like a guilty fpirit, juft waiting for the moment of putting the question, that you might hop in and give your venal vote; or, at times, with a vulgar brogue, apeing the manner, and affecting the infirmities of Lord Chatham; or like a kettle-drummer, lather yourself into popularity to catch the vulgar, or you might be feen hovering over the dome like an ill-omen'd bird of night with fepulchral notes, a cadaverous afpect, and broken beak, ready to ftoop and pounce upon your prey-you can be trufted by no man-the people cannot truft you the minifters cannot truft you-you deal out the moft impartial treachery to both-you tell the nation it is ruined by other men, while it is fold by you—you fled from the embargo, you fled from the mutiny bill you fled from the fugar billI therefore tell you in the face of your country, before all the world, and to your beard-you are not an honeft man.

Mr. Flood. I have heard a very extraordinary harangue indeed, and I challenge any man to fay, that any thing half fo unwarrantable, was ever uttered in this Houfe. The Right Honourable Gentleman fet out with declaring, he did not with to use perfonality, and no fooner has he opened his mouth, than forth iffues all the venom that ingenuity and difappointed vanity, for two years brooding over corruption, has produced-but it cannot taint my public character; four and twenty years employed in your fervice, has eftablished that; and as to my private, let that be learned from my tenants, from my friends, from thofe under my own roof-to thofe I appeal, and this appeal I boldly make, with utter contempt of infinuations, falfe as they are illiberal. The whole force of what has been faid, refts upon this, that I once accepted office, and this is called apoftacy ;-but is a man the less a patriot, for being an honeft fervant of the crown. As to me, I took as great a part with the first office of the state at my back, as ever the Right Honourable Gentleman did with mendicancy behind him.

Mr. Flood proceeded to defend his character, when, at a pause, the Speaker took the opportunity to interfere, and with the utmoft politenefs, and in the kindeft manner, entreated him to forbear, declaring that he had fuffered inexpreffible pain during this conteft, and that nothing but the calls of the Houfe to hear the two members, could have made him fo long fit filent. He again befought Mr. Flood to fit down, and the House joining with the