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ways an attendant upon riches, the principle of the bill would be. a good one; but unhappily we know the contrary is fact, for thofe who have moft, the men who are wallowing in wealth, are ftill for having a little more; on the contrary, there are many fhining inftances of the poorer men maintaining inflexible virtue. We have all heard of Andrew Marvel, who could return the fecond and the third day to his bone of mutton, and defpife the wages of venality. But as to the practicability of this bill, it is notorious that in England, from whence it is copied, qualifications for members to ferve in parliament are bought and fold as openly and as frequently as any other commodity.

Sir Edward Newenham.-There is no doubt, but the prefent bill in England is notoriously evaded; therefore, though the bill now tendered may not be perfect, it is our bufinefs to render it effectual; we know the errors of the English bill, and may regulate this bill accordingly; few bils are perfect on their first introduction.

The Clerk now proceeded to read the bill at the table, when fome inaccuracies being found, Mr. Crofton withdrew it for the prefent.

Sir H. Cavendish moved, "that the condition of this country demands that every practicable retrenchment, confiftent with the fafety thereof, and with the honourable fuppo rt of his Majesty's government, fhould be made in its expences."

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Mr. Mafon obferved, that as the queftion was one of a number intended by the Hon. Baronet, he might with ftri& parliamentary order object to its being brought forward alone, but he rather chofe to object to it as being offered at a moft improper time, before the national accounts could have been examined. They had indeed been but juft read by their titles, and a committee ordered to inspect them, but as that committee had not reported, the Houfe had no information on which to found the refolution in order therefore to have the question, to whose object he was a friend, fairly inveftigated, he advised the Hon. Baronet to withdraw it till the Houfe had full information on the subject, other wife he would move the previous question, whether the Hon. Baronet's refolution be now put.

Sir Henry Cavendish faid, he would offer a very few words, to thew the Houfe that this was the proper time for bringing on his motion. The public accounts he faid, had just been received, and taking it for granted they were accurate, they were fuincient ground to found his refolution upon; it was therefore unneceffary to wait for the report of the committee of accounts, for when that would be made, the time for retrenchment would be past.It was not, he said, neceflary for gentlemen to make use of a previ ous queftion to get rid of his refolution; they might if they could deny the truth of it, give it a direct negative. But I will, con

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tinued he, tell gentlemen my motives to prevent them from gueffing. If ever there was a time when a plan of economy was neceffary, and might be proposed with a profpect of fuccefs, it is the prefent. When the Duke of Portland was Lord Lieutenant, œconomy was the very foul of his administration; and had it continued, this motion would have been unneceffary. That illuftrious nobleman is now at the head of the British ministry, and we have a chief governor high in his confidence, and who will receive every fupport and afliftance from his friendship. Our prefent Lord Lieutenant has himself, I am confident, every good difpofition towards this country; and of the Right Honourable Gentleman, his fecretary, I would fay much, was he not now prefent. Befides all thefe favourable circumstances, we have a new parliament, not bound by continued acts of prodigality to make their prefent conduct confiftent with their past.

From the year 1755, to 1771, the national expence had been increafing, he faid, to a moft alarming fum; and then he stated fe'verally the growth of each eftablishment in expence to its present moft alarming corrupt influence. The national debt was now little fhort of two millions, whereas in 1755 there was a credit due to the nation of upwards of 400,000l. He understood, he faid, that one-third of the House confifted of new members, and he expected from them more virtue, than from thofe long hackneyed in the ways of prodigality; if they could avoid the little legerdemain of the court, and not fall into that fettled fyftem of corruption, which too remarkably diftinguifhed the adminiftration of 1771, when it was remarkable under the influence of a certain junto at the guidance of affairs, to fay, "fupport my job, and I will fupport yours"-and thus they danced away the public wealth whilft poor Ireland paid the piper. To the honour of Lord Northington he muft confefs, that he ftrongly recommended œconomy from the throne, and believed it a fincere recommendation.

Captain Burgh remarked, that the Right Honourable Baronet had expatiated much on the ftate of affairs in 1771, but he had delivered no opinion of the affairs of 1783. The committee of accounts was not to be waited for, nor even the perufal of thofe papers which the Right Honourable Gentleman himself had called for, which moft certainly implied a doubt of the ground he went over; nor was he even willing to make any allowances for the exigencies which caufed the railing men for the war, nor any other contingent circumftance which led to the increase of national expence.

Mr. Monk Mafon argued again, that the motion was premature, and as fuch moved the previous question.

Sir Edward Newenham.-The present British ministry took the royal closet by affault, under pretence of economy, and leffen

ing the undue influence of the crown-they have deceived the people-for here, their fubftitutes prove the friends of prodigality, and enemies to œconomy; in power, their fentiments and actions are the very reverfe of what they were when out of power. -The hypocrify is too glaring.

Mr. Browne of the College, recommended the accounts to the year 1781, to be taken as the foundation of this motion.

Mr. Flood.-I find myfelf little capable of fpeaking to this question, oppreffed with fickness as I am; not in the leaft degree expecting fuch a queftion this night, and more aftonifhed than ever was in my life, to find the leaft fymptom of oppofition rifing on the other fide of the Houfe. The oppofition to it thould originate here, for the refolution does not go as far as it ought to do. In Lord Townshend's adminiftration, a refolution was propofed, "that the condition of this country required every practicable retrenchment to be made in its expences;" and the administration of that day thought they had done enough, and allowed them'felves latitude fufficient, by amending it with these words-confiftent with the welfare thereof, and the bonourable Support of his majefty's government-tho' the refolution fo amended, stood then exactly like the prefent motion. [Here the clerk, at Mr. Flood's defire, read the former refolution.] But I think this motion ftill allows too great an inlet to public profufion. Some men will think of their own welfare, when the welfare of the country is the object, and include their own fupport within the honourable support of his Majefty's government; I did not, therefore, think any man on the fide of administration would have opposed the motion; I rather fuppofed they would have called out in triumph to let it pass; they would have exulted to fee" the new commons, the new country," Ireland, in its emancipated and dignified ftate, tolerate the nonfenfe that was current in Lord Townshend's adminiftration.

I am as willing as any man to pay compliment to miniftry, both here and in England, to allow them every degree of credit for their honourable intentions; I have not the imalleft ground of animofity or refentment to them, and when I hear œconomy recommended from the throne, almoft in the words of the Honourable Baronet, I am aftonished at an oppofition to his motion. Indeed, I believe the words of that recommendation were by some accident misplaced, or that government has not digefted the plan of retrenchment; they fhould not have followed immediately the mention of the Genevan Colony, a body of virtuous men, who to avoid the moft ignominious flavery, have fought an afylum in the arms of this country. It was not the proper place to use the words œconomy, it there difgraces the virtuous and generous act of men who have juft recovered their own liberty; by placing it there, we may lofe a great deal of honour, but can fave very little mo'ney. But it is not in fuch little things we are to look for relief

our retrenchments fhould reach establishments, and not like England plunge deeper each day in ruin. Miniftry both here and in that kingdom, have been often warned of the fatal confequences that muft follow, but thefe warnings have been treated as the vifions of speculative men.England, that great and mighty country, now flaggers under a load of debt, diftreffed and difmembered, her expences overwhelm her; and where is the man who will fay the fhall be redemeed? Where is the man who will fay, I will redeem her, and will fay how? Though every little minifter, or every little man who imagines he is a minifter, is ready to undertake the management of her affairs: where is the man who will fay that Ireland ought to have a peace establishment of 15,000 men? When the augmentation took place in Lord Townshend's adminiftration, this country was unable to bear it, and fince that day we have been involving her deeper and deeper, because we at firft engaged her in an undertaking beyond her ftrength :when all the world united againt Britain, and fhe was furrounded with enemies on every fide, we gave way to the feelings of our hearts and 'fpared her 4000 men, and fome time after in the moment de flagrante bello, we granted her more than half our remaining troops; if then in time of war the country could fubfift without troops, will any man fay, that in time of profound peace the ought to fupport 15,000 men? No, now is the time for reducing your military eftablishment-let your intention be known this day, that the Right Honourable Secretary may have time to communicate with England: if you neglect the prefent opportunity, no minifter hereafter will have even a pretence for reftoring the finances of this country.

I am no partizan either here or in England, I can gain nothing by it; I am ready in either place, like a man, to fupport minifters while they are right, and whenever they are wrong to oppose them, and refit their meafures. At prefent I hope my honourable friend will allow me to alter his motion, and ftate a precife idea; I would have it run thus: "Refolved, that the condition of this country requires every practicable retrenchment, &c. and that the military establishment in its prefent ftate, affords room for effectual retrenchment."

I love the army as a body of brave and worthy men, but I would not facrifice the kingdom to their benefit. Now, Sir, if minifters really mean ceconomy, they will agree with this amendment of mine; if not, they will amufe us with words only.

Mr. George Ponsonby-Sir, I can fee as plainly as any man the intent of the reflections thrown upon your predeceffor in the chair; and I muft fay, as to the mover of this refolution, that no difapprobation of his gives me any but a pleafurable fenfation: and I do at all times feel that fupreme contempt for his difapprobation and opinion, which I now take the liberty to declare. Mr.

Ponsonby then entered into a defence of his father's (the late Speaker) conduct-he recited the hiftory of that time-He faid that Mr. Flood had exerted himself to fupport his father's intereft against Lord Townshend's attacks; and afked, why, when virtue in the fhape of Lord Townshend had overturned intereft, the alledged fyftem of profufion had not been overturned alfo? He declared his firm reliance on the Duke of Portland and his friends, that they intended an effectual and fatisfactory reform; and concluded that if the Hon. Baronet thought the circle in which he fat was compofed of men grown old in iniquity, it would be but charitable for him to come amongst them, as only from his virtuous contact and indefatigable labours, they could hope to be brought into the road of righteoufnefs.

Mr. Flood faid, he had not fupported Mr. Ponfonby's intereft, but he had opposed Lord Townshend's adminiftration: he said this to exculpate Mr. Ponfonby from the charge of ingratitude, for when he had felt the hand of power, Mr. Ponfonby had not fupported him; but he never looked at fuch little things as the intereft of particular men or their parties; they appeared great indeed to the men who were engaged in them, but in the eyes of the man who contemplates the public welfare, they vanish into nothing. Had I, faid he, been his father's fupporter, the Hon. Gentleman but ill requited me, when in his loudeft tone, he cried out to have me difmiffed, and feemed to reproach minifters with pufillanimity for delaying the fentence. He declared, indeed, that he had no perfonal diflike to me, but it was only to oblige one or two particular friends; yet the Gentleman boafts of whig principles, whig connexions; whig friends he may juftly boaft, but fuch conduct was a manifestation of whig apoftacy, God and nature have eftablished this limit to power, it cannot long fubfift divested of rectitude. Do we mean to take up the works of retrenchment ourfelves, or will we leave it to others to do for us? Will we retrench our own expences, or leave it to others to œconomize for us? If we proceed upon this bufinefs, the people will stand grateful and admiring fpectators of our progrefs, if not, they may perhaps take it up themselves; let us then act honeftly, let us tell Great-Britain what no man can deny, that the military is the place to make retrenchment. I will fuppofe minifters as good as any man can wish, but 'tis our duty to give them opportunity of exercifing their honeft intentions,

Mr. George Ponfonby utterly denied his ever calling for the difmiffal of the Hon. Gentleman; he repeated his words, which, he faid, could not bear that interpretation.

The Speaker earneftly exhorted gentlemen to avoid any perfonality, and informed them, that it was against the order of the House to mention any thing which had been spoken in a former debate,

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