from fitting) in the House of Commons. Leave was granted, and Sir Edward Newenham, Gorges Lowther, and Edward Crofton, Efqrs. were appointed to bring in the bill.

Mr. Curren While I reflect that the motion I am now going to make is of the utmost importance to the honour, and even existence of this Houfe, and that I have given full notice of my intention, I am much furprifed at the little regard that feems intended to be paid to it, as is manifeft from the emptiness of those benches--this, Sir, is not a question of party; I am no party man, I defpife the principle; I never did, nor ever will attach myfelf to party, and though I mean to move the resolution from this fide of the Houfe, yet it concerns both fides equally; it goes to affert the privileges of the people of Ireland reprefented in this House of Commons, and I fay every party, and every description of men in this Houfe is equally concerned in fupporting it. I fay it is the fole and exclufive right of the Commons of Ireland to originate and frame money bills in fuch manner as they fhall think proper, and the refolution I intend to propofe, is only to vindicate this privilege from the encroachments of a neighbouring affembly, which has lately, by certain refolutions, invaded this right, this palladium of the conftitution, which I truft every man in the Houfe will think himself bound to defend.

I am forry to say that the conftitution of Ireland is fo young, that I need not go back to a very remote period, to prove that the exclufive right of originating and framing money bills, has always refided in this Houfe; but for thirty years back, it cer tainly has, and in England, from whence we derive our conftitution, it always has been the practice. The peers and the crown poffefs an undoubted right of rejecting fuch bills in toto, but, in the Commons alone refides the power of originating or framing them; the very mode of giving the royal affent to fuch bills, demonftrates that the Commons alone are the fource from which they flow. His Majefty thanks his faithful Commons, accepts their benevolence, and wills it to be fo, and this mode obtains both in Britain and here. To whom thould the people of Ireland look for the redrefs of grievances, for the encouragement of arts, for the promotion of commerce, but to their reprefentatives in this Houfe? What powerful engine has this House, by which it can obtain the redress of grievances, the encouragement of arts, or the promotion of commerce, but by including those objects in the bill of fupply? And if the right be once given up, or wrefted from the Commons, they ceafe to be the patrons and representatives of the people; another affembly will affume that power, and the people will learn to look for that encouragement and fupport from the ariftocratic, which they now receive from the democratic branch of the ftate, and this House will become a very cypher, and its members, inttead of poffeffing the

power of encouraging arts, rewarding merit, or in a word, of ferving the country, will become the humble folicitors of another affembly.

From the reign of Henry the Third, the power of annexing the redrefs of grievances to money bills, has been the conftitutional privilege of the Commons of England; the practice of inferting fuch claufes as the Commons have deemed proper, has obtained in Ireland for more than thirty years, and to any perfon acquainted with our conftitution, muft at the flighteft view, appear to be their inherent right: I cannot therefore fuppofe this House will be filent when this privilege is invaded by another affembly; no man entertains an higher opinion of that affembly than I do, and I am perfuaded that fo great is their Lordships wisdom, that when this matter is duly confidered by them, they will fee the impropriety of two refolutions which appear upon their journals of the fourth and fifth of the prefent month, to this effect, "That all grants made to private manufacturers, ought to be made in feparate acts, and that enacting claufes in bills of fupply, the matter of which is foreign to the bill, is unparliamentary, and tends to deftroy the conftitution of this kingdom." That the illuftrious affembly to which I allude, has paffed fuch a refolution, is notorious, and cannot be denied, it is inferted in their journals, and has been feen by many members of this Houfe; the formality therefore of appointing a committee to infpect their Lordships journals is unneceffary, and all that remains for the Commons, is to vindicate their own privileges by a mild and temperate refolution which I fhall propofe to the House, for even admitting that fometimes an Houfe of Commons has erred in making improper grants, we fhould rather reform ourselves, and determine not to err again, than fubmit to have a monitor

over us.

If I was addreffing an House of Commons, the most virtuous or the most corrupt, I fhould expect to be fupported in this meafure; for I would fay to a virtuous House of Commons, the privilege of originating and framing money bills is the palladium of your liberty, the great engine to reftrain oppreflion, to redrefs grievances, or to encourage merit. I would fay to a corrupt Houfe of Commons, it is the palladium of your corruption, the fecurity of the wages of your venality, the means by which you may obtain the reward of your proftitution; or if I was addressing an House containing both defcriptions, both kinds of argument would be applicable. But to the Houfe before which I stand, furely the arguments which I have firft ufed, the arguments of virtue and of honour will be fufficient; to them therefore I fhall truit.

I lament that a learned and Right Honourable Member, with whom I once had the happiness of living on terms of friendship, is

now absent; because I think I might rely upon his fupporting the refolution I intend to propofe; that fupport would perhaps renew the intercourfe of our friendship, which has lately been interrupted. And I muft beg the indulgence of the Houfe to fay, that that friendship was upon the footing of perfect equallity, not impofed by obligation on the one fide, or bound by gratitude on the other; for I thank God, when that friendship commenced, I was above receiving obligation from any man, and therefore our friendthip, as it was more pure and difinterested, as it depended on a fympathy of minds and congeniality of fentiments, I trufted would have endured the longer. I think myself bound to make this public declaration, as it has gone forth from this House, that I am a man of ingratitude, and to declare, that for any difference of opinion with my learned and Right Honourable Friend, I cannot be taxed with ingratitude; for that I never received any obligation from him, but lived on a footing of perfect equality, fave only fo far as his great talents and erudition outwent

mine.

I confefs my obligation to the Houfe for this indulgence of fpeaking a few words foreign to the debate, but which every man muft think I owed to my own character; and that I may detain gentlemen no longer, I fhall briefly move,

"That it is the fole and undoubted privilege of the Commons of Ireland to originate all bills of fupply and grants of public money, in fuch manner and with fuch claufes as they shall think proper."

Mr. Parfons feconded the motion.

Sir Hercules Langrifbe.-I cannot fee, even admitting that the refolutions of the Lords are as the Honourable Member has quoted them, that they at all infringe the privileges of this Houfe; the refolutions only go to the regulations of their own proceedings; they do not even infinuate an attempt to reftrain our power; they do not fay that we have not the exclufive privilege of originating and framing these bills, they merely determine to regulate their own proceedings; they wish that the different articles which we generally introduce into our bills of supply, should each stand separately, and on its own merit. As to tacking matters of importance to money bills, I think on very great occafions the practice is right, but it should not be proftituted to trifles.

Mr. Molyneux.-I will not ftrive to engage this House in a quarrel, when nothing can be gained by the iffue. Allufions are every day made in this House, to the refolution I had the honour of propofing for increafing the falary of the Lord Lieutenant, but I cannot think that to fpend 4000. a year amongst the starving artificers of this city, can be injurious to the community.

Sir Henry Cavendish faid there was no inftance of fuch a refolution being negatived. I do not exactly know what the Lords have done, but if their refolutions be fuch as have been reported, if we are charged with acting in an unparliamentary manner, and tending to deftroy the conftitution, we are bound to refute the charge.

Mr. Huffey fupported the exclufive right of the people to difpofe of their own money by their reprefentatives. He maintained that no other branch of the legislature had any right to interfere, except to reject the bills of fupply in toto; and thought the Houfe called upon to refift every invafion of this right, which, as reprefentatives and truftees of the people, they were bound to watch with a cautious jealousy.

Mr. Majon defired to know whether the learned gentleman had any other refolutions to follow that which he now offered; but Mr. Curren avoiding this question, Mr. Mafon declared that such conduct was utterly inconfiftent with parliamentary candour, and that he would vote against the refolution on that ground.

It is, faid he, fo eafy and fo common a thing, to paint the fituation of the country as ruined, and the members of this House as deferting their station, that the people never believe any evil now which they do not feel, nor will it be poffible for all the eloquence of the learned gentleman to perfuade them they are ruined, while they feel themselves profperous and happy; as to the matter now before the House, as it does not affect them, I am convinced they will not concern themfelves with it.

The belt way to affert the privileges of this House, and to maintain our right of difpofing of the public money, is to proceed as we have hitherto done, to frame our money bills according to our own pleafure, without taking any notice of their lordfhips refolutions, who may indeed reject our bills, but cannot alter them.

Sir Henry Cavendish recommended the mode of appointing a committee to examine the journals.

The Provost faid, that money bills originating in the House of Commons, was an acknowledged principle of the conftitutionbut though he doubted not in the leaft of what the Honourable Member had advanced, yet was there any evidence before the Houfe to prove the existence of thefe refolutions?—The parliamentary mode was, as had been juftly remarked by an Honourable Baronet (Sir Henry Cavendish) that a committee fhould be appointed to infpect the journals, and on the report of the committee, the Houfe may come to whatever refolution it thinks necellary; this is the conflitutional mode of convincing their lordthips they are wrong-but you are in poffeffion of parliamentary evidence, that the House of Lords has not deviated from a practice of fifty years paft, for we have fent up a money-bill to that

1

House, with claufes annexed, yet the bill has come without any amendment. He faid it was not ufual in England to tack claufes to a bill of fupply, and as he did not fee the neceflity of paffing the refolution, he would propose an amendment-that, after the word refolved, the following words fhould be inferted, -" that it appears to this Houfe, it is not now neceffary to declare."

Mr. Brownlow faid, we fhould not take notice of what paffed in another affembly: If in the next feffion any infringement should be made on the privilege of this Houfe, it would be time then to take it up; at prefent he faw no neceffity for coming to the refolution:-The amendment then paffed, and on the queftion being put for agreeing to the refolution,

Mr. Curren faid, he would have this bufinefs ftand over till after the recefs, and in the mean time moved the following refolution:

Refolved, That a committee be appointed to infpect the journals of the Houfe of Lords, and to report what refolutions were entered on them the 4th and 5th of this month.

This refolution was oppofed by Mr. Molyneux, Honourable Mr. Brown, Sir Edward Newenham, Right Honourable John Hely Hutchinfon, and Mr. Brownlow, on the ground of its not being neceffary at this time.

It was fupported by Sir Henry Cavendish, and Mr. Brown, as agreeeable to the ufage of parliament, to appoint committees to infpect the journals.

Mr. Curren fpoke again.—An amendment was proposed, which being agreed to, the refolution fo amended was put, when there appeared

Ayes,
Noes,

II

40

Tellers for the Ayes, Mr. Curren and Mr. Brown.
Tellers for the Noes, Mr. Mafon and Mr. Langrishe.

Several petitions from and againft infolvent debtors received.

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 17, 1783.

Several petitions from infolvent debtors were prefented, read, and ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Gardiner moved that the petition of the factors and others concerned in the exportation of linen yarn, be referred to the committee of trade.-Ordered accordingly.

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