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of an antient House, and more completely annihilated its confequence in a moment, than fuch an unqualified acquiefcence on the part of the Houfe of Commons would deftroy theirs. But, in fact, whatever fhare the convention might have had in it, the Honourable Gentleman who made the motion, and the Right Honourable Gentleman who feconded it, bring it forward as their own act, and not that of any fuppofed body of men whatfoever-Does not this difavowal of conventional interference tacitly pay this Houfe that refpect, the infringement of which is to loudly exclaimed againft; and may not those who are the most severely jealous of its dignity be in fome measure satisfied, when the Right Hon. Gentleman, notwithstanding all the predominant influence which his great and overshadowing abities are faid to have secured to him in that convention, does not attempt to appear before gentlemen in any other character than that of an undiftinguished member of parliament, properly and conftitutionally afking leave to bring in a bill to remove certain defects in the reprefentation of the people?

He faid, that he had not the vanity or the prefumption to imagine that what he could fay that night would have any particular weight with any man, or defcription of men in that Houfe, and if, after all, there fhould be found fome gentlemen who were both inimical to the principle of a reform, but who were really and fincerely alarmed at the idea of an armed affembly fitting in the metropolis, and therefore would not lend their fupport to any propofition which could be fuppofed by any means whatever to originate in fuch an affembly, however refolved to vote for fuch propofition on another occafion, they were certainly every way juftified in doing fo; the delicacy and timidity of fuch men, with regard to the constitution, was on the pureft principles of patriotifm perfectly laudable; but if (and he spoke with great deference) there were any gentlemen who were not only averfe to the introduction of the bill that night, but who were equally adverfe to the difcuffion of fuch a question at any time whatfoever, however unexceptionable, however conftitutional its origin, who were in thort refolved to get rid of the question at all events, to fuch gentlemen he should, with all humility, take leave to say one or two words-That what he wifhed to imprefs on the minds of gentlemen at prefent was this: That not only a great revolution had taken place in the conftitution of this country, but a great revolution had taken place in the public mind itfelf. It would be the province of a philofophic hiftorian hereafter to elucidate the many caufes which gradually led to this extraordinary metamorphofis which had taken place, not only in this country, but more or lefs in many countries in Europe, and fo far it undoubtedly formed a remarkable æra in the hiftory of human in

tellect. It was fufficient for him that it had taken place, and if it had, this conclufion in his opinion inevitably followed-That as the fentiments of the people at large are changed, the mode of conducting national business, or the affairs of parliament must alfo be changed, or in other words, that what was done formerly, could not with any great propriety, or even safety, be done now; and that great public queftions must be treated at present in a different manner by parliament, from what they were, when this country was in little better than a state of political infancy; that if we compared Ireland as it ftood now, with what it was even thirty years ago, the diffimilitude would ftrike the most inobfervant, and therefore he would hazard this augury, that before the end of the century government would find the neceflity of filently conforming in many inftances to the temper and the fentiments which had lately fprung up amongst usThis would argue no particular debility in one administration more than another, it would be no improvident, lamentable conceffion to the idle clamour of the day; it would be no alteration of the conftitution, it would be only a juft conformity to that mutation of circumftances, and difpofitions which the course of time naturally brought along with it, and which every wife government, muft, for its own prefervation, neceffarily attend to.-If former parliaments had been complained of, as fo loft to all feeling of the rights of this kingdom, as to make the journals of that House in many inftances, not the records of a great people, but the monuments of national imbecility, the authenticated difgrace of the people of Ireland, he was not at all furprized at it, on the contrary, he should have been much furprized had it been otherwife; for it is the characteristic of all power, if it meets no refiftance in the general fentiment, to be ftill progreffive; and there was fomething in the ignominious repofe of the national mind fome years back, which feemed abfolutely to court every fpecies of hoftility and infult, on the part of government. What had an English fupremacy in an Irish ariftocracy formerly to encounter, in their fullen march over this exhaufted country? Turn which way they would, the public mind exhibited a frightful picture of impoverishment-But thank God, things were altered, and what accorded extremely well with a lacerated province, which was content to fee one and the fame parliament, fit in defiance of all conftitution for three and thirty years together, will hardly accord with the affairs of a rifing kingdom; where commerce and conftitution were both to be found.

He begged gentlemen therefore to advert to this circumftance, which, though with the uninformed mafs of mankind totally inoperative perhaps, would, he flattered himself, be paid fome little attention to by those whom he had the honour of then addreffing. It was, in fact, beneath the dignity of any House

of Commons to evade the difcuffion of a great conftitutional queftion, but for the prefent Houfe, which had been fo recently elected, and elected almoft in the very effulgence of the Irish revolution, for fuch a Houfe to fhrink totally back from the very first conftitutional queftion that came before it, without any ftipulation on the part of thofe who opposed it now, to fupport it on a future day when brought forward in what appeared to them a lefs queftionable form, would, in his opinion, be rather difgraceful-All he wished and defired was, that whatever might be the fate of this, or that particular plan, the queftion of reform might undergo a difcuffion fuitable to the dignity and importance of the fubject; that there never was a queftion which gave rife to fuch a variety of opinions; but that, however, he hoped fomething might be collected from this difcordancy, which though it fhould not perfectly fuit the ideas of people at prefent, might at least convince them that the House of Commons went feriously into the investigation of this great bufinefs; that they meant fairly by them, and that they were not deficient in refpect either to the people or to themselves-If they did not, if they merely fhifted off the question on account of the convention, without any ferious intention of taking it up themfelves, what would be the confequence? The queftion might indeed be exiled again, and again, from that House; but it would not be in their power to banish it from the people. They would have "fcoched the fnake, not killed `it.” The idea of a reform, continued he, has already been taken up by many refpectable counties, and if abfolutely rejected to night, will in all probability be taken up by many more; the minds of people will be more heated than ever, and the event will be, that after many a conflict in this House, instead of a long digested, moderate, rational plan of reform, if reform fhall be found neceffary; fuch a reform as would be exactly congenial to the principles of the conftitution, and no more; and which would therefore, when carried into execution juftify the legiflature in nothing-one folemn and final' halt in the progrefs of reformation, and rifing as one man against any further demands whatever, inftead of this we fhall, in fome giddy inaufpicious moment, precipitantly adopt fome plan, every feature of which will denote the wild hoftility against the conftitution which produced it; which inftead of amending, will tear the frame of government to pieces, and the very people who brought it forward, will be the first to abhor it, and lament their own deftructive temerity when it is too late-He concluded with giving his affirmative to the question.

Mr. Curren faid, he was furprised to fee a man, rifing up with the violence of a Maniac, to tell us that this bill ought not to be received while the convention was fitting; but that convention

and the volunteers in general, you will not find your enemies ; they have no other enemies but the enemies of their country.That a reform has long been neceffary the hiftory of this coun-` try, faid he, evinces. Why were you fo long flaves, but because the parliament wanted a reform?-Why, juft after your hearts throbbed at your new acquired conftitution, at the glory of Ireland, did you fink that glory in the flavery of an adulatory addrefs, but that you wanted a reform? The man who so violently oppofes this day a reform, was once the patron of such a meafure; but perhaps, we shall foon behold him seated where no ftorms fhall fret him.

What have we been doing fince we met? We have been talking of retrenchment, and running a course of the most profligate profufion, while our miserable fellow-creatures are roaming the ftreets for bread. [Here he gave a moft pathetic picture of the diftrefs of the poor] But fome of our new ftatefmen would guide the government if it was as eafy to be managed as a carriage with four horfes by an expert charioteer. Your argument, that if the measure comes from volunteers you will reject it, is a denunciation that you confider them às enemies: I caution the House not to make a public declaration of war!

Sir Henry Hartftonge was for receiving the bill.

Mr. John Toler faid, he conceived that in the prefent question the privilege of parliament was deeply involved; the communication with the people was intercepted, and the power of propounding taken out of the hands of the Houfe. He objected to the introduction of the bill, as it was not the legitimate offspring either of the parliament or the people. It was the fpurious abortion of the Lying-in-Hofpital, fent into the world before its timeScarce half made up. It was intitled to be dignified by fuch fponfors as introduced it, but who were now fo ashamed of it, that they denied where they found it, and were likely to run away from it as from a baftard child.

He faid, that any great innovation in the mode of receiving the fuffrages of the people, had at all times and in all countries been the forerunners of revolutions; for this it was not neceffary to look further than to the history of Rome, and the convulfions which were attendant upon the tribes and centuries of that ftate.The reprefentation of this country, he faid, flowed from two different fources, the provincial and the municipal: He was averfe from making any material change in the former, but he was free to acknowledge, that at a proper time the latter ought to be the fubject of reform. But, he faid, that he would never annihilate municipal rights by a fweep, but was ready to accede in correcting local abutes of thofe rights, whenever fuch abuses had crept in. He faid, he knew many inftances, where the charter rights of towns had been violated-the law, as it ftands, and the interven

tion of this Houfe in applying remedies to the particular mifchiefs that may be found fufficient to the evil. The conduct of Great Britain, faid he, in the cafe of Shoreham and Hindon, is to the point. By obferving fuch a conduct, faid he, you will not fhake firft principles, you will not hazard an hinge of your connexion with Great Britain, by deftroying that fimilarity of conftitution, which may be one of the ftrongeft bonds of our connexion, and which defigning men of another country might wish to disturb.-He faid, he would not allow every prefumptuous Harrington to plunge the conftitution into his favourite ocean, under a hope that it might be plucked up again by the drowned locks.He faid, he would worship the genius of the old conftitution, in her ancient temple, and would not proftrate himself to the graven image of every rafh idolater, who wishes to make an idol of himfelf. In this temple, faid he, we may repel innovations as from a tower which has ftood the fhock of time, and the brunt of many a ftorm, and you should arreft the daring hand that attempts to pick a ftone away, the lofs of which may bring the whole in ruins

on your

heads.

Colonel Moffey (of the county of Limerick,) faid, that that county had initructed him to fupport in parliament, a bill for the more equal reprefentation of the people. He did not, he faid, understand what the Honourable Gentleman, (Mr. Fitzgib bon) meant, by faying, that he had converfed with the principal people of the county, and that they required no fuch reform; for he had the honour to be inftructed by a meeting, convened in a proper manner, and confifting of the moft independent men in the county, who are of opinion, that fuch a reform was indispensably neceffary; and as the Honourable Gentleman who introduced the bill, avowed it as his own act, and not the act of convention, he could fee no objection to the receiving of it.

Mr. Fitzgibbon rofe to explain; he faid, that when he mentioned the opinion of the moft refpectable gentlemen in the county of Limerick, he meant fuch of them as he had the honour to converse with on this fubject; but as to the county meetings, who were compofed of truly independent and refpectabie men, he could not entirely rely on their opinion. There had, he faid, been two county meetings, at the leaft forty members attended, of that number, twenty-three were against any alteration of the conftitution, and feventeen were for it; but the feventeen voted the twenty-three a minority, and fo carried their point.

Mr. Weltby.-Though I have not received any inftructions from the county I have the honour of reprefenting, relative to a parliamentary reform, and though I hold myfelf implicitly bound to obey the inftructions of my conftituents, yet I confefs I fhould have afcribed little merit to myfelf in obeying them, on a queftion of this nature, which fo cordially meets my warmest approba