Whilft you maintain 15,000 men, as your peace establishment, you will never reftore the finances of this beggared country. We have seen and heard of nothing but expence. In the adminiftration of the Duke of Portland, it was proposed to make out a new employment-a Solicitor General to the Queen. For thefe 10, 12, or 15 years paft, we have been wantonly encreafing the public expence. I would recommend it to the Hon. Member, before he embarks (for when he establishes his committee, the very men who come into that committee, may vote him out of the chair) to propofe the bufinefs early and in the face of the country; and I wish he would bring on fome fpecific propofitions, which would prove who were the real friends of economy, and those who were only the profeffors of it.

Mr. O'Hara declared, he thought that information on that head could be beft had through the medium of a committee. He had examined the public accounts, and found that the military expences in one feffion had confiderably exceeded the expences charged in another feffion. He affured the Hon. Member that it was not an imaginary but a real remedy that he looked for, and even from flight enquiries he learned, that fome reduction of expence may be made. It had been said, that above one hundred thoufand a year might be faved by a reduction of the army: From the beft information he was able to procure, the expence of 3000 men amounted to 52,000!. a year: The Hon. Gentleman has expreffed a wifh, that I would make fome specific profition, but not having fufficient knowledge what to ground fuch propofition on, I am not competent to do fo: that knowledge may be acquired, when we go into the committee.

Mr. Yelverton, (Attorney General) Much has been faid by the Right Honourable Gentleman of extravagance, and the changes have been rung upon the schemes of appointing an Attorney and a Solicitor General to the Queen; but the noble duke never did accede to that proposal, and even if it had been carried into effect, it would not have been an article of expence to the nation; thofe officers were not to have had falaries, and confequently the Honourable Gentleman has no right to call it by the name of extravagance. The charge of extravagance on account of the provincial regiments is equally unfounded; and the infinuation, that part of the money granted for the 20,000 feamen had been applied to their ufe, is untrue. When that infinuation was first made, I did believe it a miftake; and in examining the report of the committee of accounts, I am warranted to declare that it is one; but it may be faid that the provincial regiments were unneceffary-I deny that they were unneceffary, for when they were raised, there were not foldiers in the kingdom to do the mere holiday duty, much less to defend it from an enemy; and

as these regiments were raised from the neceffity of the times, fo were they also established with an economy fuitable to the times, and to the circumstances of the nation, for their officers had neither rank or half pay. Had regiments been raised in the regular and ordinary manner, your establishment would at this hour be burthened with the half pay of their officers; therefore I hope we have done with thofe groundlefs complaints, and that we shall never more hear thefe charges of extravagance and profufion repeated.

Mr. Flood. I fhould be extremely forry that all the Right Honourable Gentleman's hopes should prove as fallacious as the laft, for I affure him that he will again hear thofe charges of profufion and extravagance repeated: The expence of eftablishing the two officers that have been mentioned, was not perhaps the worst confequence the worst confequence was the improper influence that would thereby be added to the crown; but I did not fay that the project originated with the noble duke himself, though I can fee very little difference between a declaration made by a viceroy and his attorney general. Will the Right Honourable Gentleman pretend to fay, while he and his friends are cramming down offices and employments, that it can be done without the confent of the Lord Lieutenant? he must give us more credulity than falls to the fhare of mankind, before we can believe fuch affertions.

The Right Honourable Gentleman fays, the fencible regiments were a good measure, becaufe worfe might be devifed; on this ground he may defend any measure, provided he can find out a worfe; but if troops were neceffary, why were they taken away? it was the duty of government to reftrain the ardour of the people-'Tis infinuated that I faid fome of the money voted for raifing feamen, had been applied to the raifing of fencible regiments--I did not fay fo, I know it could not have been fo applied without the knowledge of the noble duke, but I have good reafon to believe that men were enlifted for the navy, and were afterwards turned over to fencible regiments, and that they were fuffered to retain their bounty money, which comes just to the fame thing as if the money had been given to the fencible men in the first inftance.

The report of the committee of accounts, in my opinion, does not clear up this matter; but it is the old practice, where a queftion cannot be met with argument, it is endeavoured to be rendered as inacceffible as poffible, by guarding it with difficulties, and inveloping it in a cloud. But I bring before you the report of 1768, a report that will not be tranfcended by any thing that you will now produce; it had the aid of all the ancient officers of the crown, and of all the able men of that day; it is impoffible to expect any thing more full or fatisfactory upon

the fubject. Let it not therefore be fuppofed, that I avoid a committee, when I point out through the report of a committee a faving of 150,000l. on 12,000 men, and could make a much greater faving on the reduction that might be made on 15,000 men. This faving I point out on the estimates made by minifters, and does any man think minifters fuch idiots as to estimate the higheft? No, they eftimate every thing upon the smallest fcale, and then apply to parliament for the deficiency. If then upon their fcale fo great a faving might be made, what might be made in reality?

Mr. O'Hara's motion for difcharging the order for a committee was agreed to; and as he did not make any other motion on the fubject, that bufinefs fell to the ground.

Sir Edward Newenham acquainted the Houfe, that pursuant to a notice he had given fome time fince, he would have brought on the bufinefs of a parliamentary reform, but that an Honourable Friend of his, who had promifed his alitance, would now bring it forward instead of him, in whofe able hands he had put it.

Mr. Flood-Sir, though the fubject upon which I propofe troubling the Houfe is of the first importance, yet I fhall not anticipate the future difcuffion of it. An Honourable Gentleman, (Sir Edward Newenham) who fome days fince gave notice of his intention to move for a bill for the more equal reprefentation of the people in parliament, now wishes to leave that business in other hands; if he will do me the honour to abet the undertaking, and form one of the committee for preparing the bill, I will make that motion, not entering into the neceflity or merits of it till it comes under difcuffion, but merely making the motion of course, and referving my right to fpeak upon it if a debate fhould arife.

I therefore, Sir, moft humbly move you for leave to bring in a bill for the more equal reprefentation of the people in par

liament.

Attorney General-I do not rife, any more than the Honourable Gentleman, to difcufs the merits of his bill, at leaft till the ground on which it is taken up fhall be mentioned, though on the face of it it imports a very great innovation of the conftitution; and if I have any judgment, it appears to proceed from a radical mistake. I have always been of opinion, that according to the original frame of our conftitution, the people in virtue of their perfons never were reprefented; and was I now allowed to go into that queftion, I think I could prove it to the fatisfaction of the Houfe; but the motion is a furprife upon the Houfe: The Honourable Member faid he would not move it for ten days, and now he transfers it to another Honou rable Member, in order to take us unprepared.

Sir Edward Newenbym-I faid I would not propose to enter into a committee on the bill for eight or ten days.

Attorney General-I understood that we were to have ten days previous notice before this bill was brought forward, but it is not worth enquiring into. I do not mean to go into the difcuffion of the bill, but I would with the Honourable Member would now itate the neceffity there is for bringing it in at all, and also who thofe perfons are who are difcontented with the prefent conftitution, and with whom it originates, for I will fay if it originates with an armed body, 'tis inconfiftent with the freedom of debate for this Houfe to receive it. We fit not here to register the edicts of another affembly, or to receive propofitions at the point of the bayonet: I admire the volunteers, fo long as they confine themselves to their firft line of conduct; it was their glory to preferve the domeftic peace of their country, and to render it formidable to foreign enemies—it was their glory to aid the civil magistrate, and to fupport their parliament; but when they, turn afide from this honourable conduct, when they form themselves into a debating fociety, and with that rude inftrument the bayonet, probe and explore a conftitution which requires the nicest hand to touch, I own my refpect and veneration for them is deftroyed-If it be avowed that this bill originated with them I will reject it at once, because I confider that it decides the question, whether this Houfe or the convention are the reprefentatives of the people, and whether parliament or the volunteers are to be obeyed-I confider it as a queftion involving the existence of the conftitution; and it is in vain, whatever may be avowed or pretended, to fhut our ears and eyes to what every one has heard and feen-armed men walking bareheaded through the streets under a military efcort, courting the fmiles and applaufes of the multitude, and meeting in the Pantheon of divinities, the Rotunda- for we are told 'tis blafphemy to utter a word against them;-forming committees and fub-committees, receiving reports and petitions, and going through all the mockery of Parliament-'tis in vain then to pretend that this bill is not their mandate; and can any man who has the leaft regard for that conftitution which our ancestors purchased with their blood, bear to fee government forced from its centre by thefe reformers? I think the time is now arrived, things are come to fuch a crifis, that even our self-prefervation, as a parliament, depends on the vote we shall now give-this is the fpot to make our stand, here we muft draw our line-for we have retired ftep by step as they have advanced, we are now on a precipice, and to recede one ftep more, plunges us into inevitable ruin.

Sir, I lament, for the honour of my countrymen, that they fhould have chofen this period for introducing innovation or exciting discontent-What is the occafion that calls forth their dif

pleasure against the conftitution, and what is our present fituation? Bleffed with a free trade and a free conftitution, our peers reftored to their rights and to their lawful authority, our judges rendered independent, the manacles fallen from our commons, all foreign controul abolifhed, we take our rank among the nations as a free ftate; and is this a time to alter that conftitution which has endured fo many ftorm, and risen fuperior to all oppreffions? Will the armed affociations, wife as they may be, be able to form a better, though they reject this? Before they have for a single feflion entered into the enjoyment of it, like children, they throw away the bauble, for which, with all the eagerness of an infantine caprice, they have ftruggled; or like fpendthrifts, they would make away with their inheritance before they enter into poffeffion of it. But I will fay to the volunteers, you fhall not throw from you the bleilings you may poffefs under your happy conftitution, cultivate your own profperity and enjoy the fruits of your virtue, beat your fwords into ploughfhares, return to your different occupations, leave the bufinefs of legiflation in thofe hands where the laws have placed it, and where you have had ample proof it will be used for the advantage of your country. But, Sir, it is in vain, on the part of the convention, to difclaim their intent of overawing the parliament; nay I am told their feflion is not yet prorogued, and perhaps they may meet on Monday to reverfe the opinion which this Houfe may give this night.

Sir, I call upon the Houfe to exert their fpirit, and vindicate their rights; I fhall call upon them in the words of a great man-Expergifcemini aliquando, et capeffite Rem."

I appeal to the candour of gentlemen, are they fure they come into parliament to deliver their fentiments as freely as they would do if they were not members of the convention? or will gentlemen who are not vote as free? Is it decent while the convention are watching to controul our actions, to enter into any fubject that they can propofe? I have the highest refpect for the volunteers as men, and for their former actions; but if the queftion appears to the Houfe as it does to me, the refult of any refolution formed at that meeting, it is our duty to reject it with indignation.

Sir Thomas Ofborne-To me it appears that these reformers have acted with much precipitancy and little judgment; they fhould have confidered that the reformation even of an individual requires time, and not run fo haftily into a bufinefs of this importance, and which does not belong to them; it ought to be taken up by the counties and by the cities, they are fufficiently numerous to overawe the boroughs, and confidering the difference of weight, no minifter would be mad enough to depend on the boroughs alone; if he fhould lead his troops into that fitua