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but the two names that have been mentioned, it ought to be séceived; but it is figned on behalf of a numerous and moft refpec-. table body of merchants.

Mr. Scott.-I have no objection to receiving it, as the petition of the gentlemen whofe names have been mentioned, if it is fo expreffed; the Hon. Gentleman who introduced it was going to comply, and to alter it confonant to that idea, the pen was in his hand for that purpose, and I defire, that it may be remembered that the gentlemen on that fide of the Houfe, who perfuaded him not to alter the ftyle, are the perfons, who object to the petition, not we, who refufe to admit of ufurped titles.

Mr. William Ponfonby.-I imagine if the queftion be put upon the petition in its prefent ftyle, it will not be received; I would therefore advise the Hon. Gentleman to withdraw and alter it ; for though it would give me much pain to reject the petition of a body of merchants, or of a fingle merchant, or even of the lowest perfon, yet I would rather do that than violate the forms of this Houfe.

Mr.Lodge Morres-The title of this petition does not accord with our laws; but as the Hon. Gentleman who introduced it may withraw it, I hoped for a mere punctilio he will not suffer a benefit to his country to be loft.

Mr. Carry-I entreat gentlemen to confider what will be the confequence, if every man who propofes any thing difagreeable to the minifter, is to have his mouth flopped by calling for the order of the day. I beg that fome regard may be had to the privilege of the Houfe, and the privileges of the people: They have been both broken this night, and in a moft important inftance relative to the rifing commerce of this country; I do proteft against fuch proceedings; the rights of the fubject should always be favoured in this Houfe, and if a body of men not hoftile to the laws and the conftitution, petition this Houfe, the most favourable conftruction should be given to their petition: but to reject it in the manner we are about to do at prefent, is a daring violation of the rights of the people and of the conftitution of parliament. Sir, it is the inherent right of every perfon in the kingdom to petition parliament, fo that the petition is figned by an oftenfible perfon, and this, I find, is figned by an honourable and moft refpectable Member of the Houfe, who represents the metropolis of this kingdom. It is a flagrant breach of the rights of the fubject and the privilege of parliament.

Mr. Griffith Objections have been made to the title of the petition as unknown to law, but there are many refpectable bodies of men in this country, unknown to law; the volunteers of Ireland are not recognized by law, and will any man fay they have not a right to petition parliament? [Here Mr. Griffith was called to order.]

Sir John Blaquiere-I rife to order, for the fubject before us is, whether we are to receive this petition? That admired body of men the volunteers has been alluded to, but that body of men is not the prefent queftion.

Sir Henry Cavendish-The standing order of the House was referred to a committee, but we have had no report yet.

Mr. Jones The rights of the fubject are always to be maintained. This petition is from a body of men not illegal, and therefore ought to be received. This gentleman adverted to the majority of the other fide of the Houfe.

Prime Serjeant Kelly-I feel myfelf extremely hurt by fome gentlemen making any diftinction between one fide of the House and the other: I fay place ought to make no difference, and I truft there are honourable men on both fides. I am alfo hurt at hearing a minifter's majority mentioned; no man who has not the merits of the queftion with him can have a majority: I hope it will never be prefumed that a majority can be obtained in any other way. For my part, though I hold an office under government, I never will object to this petition for the stile ; there is no fault in the flile; here is a fele&t body of men called th chamber of commerce; the ufe of names is to know who the perfons petitioning are, in cafe of any impropriety we may call them before us. To this petition we have the name of an honourable member of this Houfe, he is anfwerable for it; it is acknowledged to be a matter of importance, and fhall we for mere matter of form, reject an important matter fo well authenticated? No, though I am on this fide of the House, and will fupport government in every honourable meafure, and in none but honourable measures, I will receive this petition; no power on earth shall prevent me. [Here a loud clapping taking place, the gallery was ordered to be cleared. As foon as that order was complied with, and the Houfe was cleared,]

Mr. Fitzgibbon warmly cenfured the indecent conduct of the gallery, and moved that the Houfe fhould enter into a refolution, "That a grofs and indecent outrage, by clapping of hands, having been committed this night by the ftrangers admitted to the gallery, refolved that the ferjeant at arms do from time to time take into his cuftody any firanger or ftrangers that he shall fee or be informed of to be in the Houfe, while any committee of the whole Houfe, or the committee of privileges is fitting; and that this order be ftrictly enforced." [The motion was fupported by a great number of the treafury fide, and oppofed by the other part of the Houfe as ftrenuously.]

Mr. Flood, who came in late, was an able advocate for the admiffion of constituents to hear their debates, and declared that if gentlemen were not afhamed of their conduct, they had nothing

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to fear from its being known, and that it was unreasonable and unjuft to preclude all from the galleries for the intemperate conduct of a few.

The motion was then carried.

Ayes

Noes

157

72

Mr. Hartley's petition was then precluded by the queftion on the order of the day, which was carried without a divifion.

The order of the day was then read for the commitment of the third and fourth money bills; pursuant thereto the House refolved into a committee, where the bills were read paragraph by paragraph, agreed to, and ordered to be reported to-morrow.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1783.

The committee to inquire into the state of the trade between this kingdom and Portugal, fat for fome time, after which the House refumed.

The order of the day being read for the trial of the controverted election for the town of Baltimore, the following perfons were nominated as a felect committee;

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Mr. Fofter reported, pursuant to order, from the committee of the whole Houfe, appointed to take into confideration an engroffed bill, entitled an act for granting to his majesty certain duties on beer, ale, ftrong waters, &c. that they had gone through the fame.

The committee of ways and means having fat, and the House being again refumed,

A motion was made, that the Houfe do agree with the committee, that fixpence additional duty be laid on every gallon of rum, and eight pence on every gallon of brandy imported, from the 25th day of December, 1783, to the 25th of March, 1784, inclufively.

The Provoft faid, that the adoption of the additional 6d. on rum would be, not only prejudicial to the refpectable mercan

tile city he had the honour to reprefent, but also to the equally refpectable gentlemen of the provinces of Connaught, Leinster, and Munster, who were engaged in pafturage. Any injury done the provifion trade muft hurt them, and they were of too much confequence to the ftate to be overlooked by that Houfe. His conftituents particularly, whofe interefts he would, while he had breath, endeavour to maintain, as well in his every other fituation, as in that of a member of parliament, would be much damaged in the provifion trade they carry on, efpecially to the Weft-Indies. Gentlemen muft know that the return made was not in fpecie, but in rum; therefore by laying the additional 6d. a gallon on rum, the confumption must be leffened, in proportion as the tax increased; how this would operate, needed no explanation. He said that the merchants of Cork did not petition, because they apprehended that the mode of application would be too dilatory; but contented themselves with communicating their defires to him by a letter figned with very refpectable names: [Here he read the letter as part of his fpeech] The laying on the additional 64. would also give a fuperiority to the people of America in the commerce they might hereafter carry on with the Weft-India Islands, and if there was a fuperiority to be given any where, furely gentlemen could not hesitate giving it to the manufactures of their own country.

The high price that provifions at prefent bear, and were likely to continue to bear, fhould be an additional reafon with the Houfe not to adopt the measure [Here he ftated the price of different grain for fome time paft] for that by preventing, in this manner, the confumption of rum, a greater quantity of barley and oats would be ufed in the diftilleries, which, in the prefent high price of provifions, might be attended with inconveniencies to the lower order of the people, which the House of Commons were in duty bound, as far as in them lay, to avert. As he happened to throw out this idea, he would carry it farther, though not altogether connected with the fubject before them, and recommended it particularly to the North country members, (where generally every three years, a real or artificial famine exifts) to establish public granaries in the principal towns, buying in corn when cheap, and felling it out at reasonable prices, in times of fcarcity. He would recommend it to parliament to grant bounties on the carriage of corn to thofe granaries. He concluded with moving, that the word " fixpence," be ftruck out of the refolution.

Mr. Longfield faid, that his Right Hon. Colleague had stated this matter fo ably, and in fo fatisfactory a manner to the House, that nothing remained for him to fay on the occafion: he would, therefore, content himself with feconding the motion.

Mr. G. Montgomery faid, he would oppofe any new duty on whiskey.

Right Hon. John Beresford faid-If there arofe any question, whether the Houfe ought to give a preference to pafturage or agriculture, he would not hesitate to give it to the latter. Tillage was much more advantageous to any country than pafturage. It conduced more to encreafing the number of the people. If, therefore, it was true, that in the number of inhabitants confifted the strength of nations, the House should adopt any measure that would promote that end. Laying on the additional 6d. would advance the breweries and diftilleries. It had been faid, that corn was at fo high a price, that every measure tending to leffen it, fhould be adopted. If corn was now high, it was no proof it fhould continue fo; and if the Houfe were to confider the different interests of different defcriptions of men, furely the interefts of the farmers did not leaft merit their attention. Right Honourable Gentleman who made the amendment with fo much ability, had mentioned, that the additional fixpence would ruin the rum trade of this kingdom. In England the duty was 8s. per gallon, and yet the trade was not deftroyed. In the article of fugar, the English, owing to the contingent advantages their long connexion with the island gave them, had an advantage, but in refpect to rum the advantage lay evidently on the fide of the Irish.

The

The Provost, in reply, faid, that the merchants of Cork were too refpectable a body of men to trouble the Houfe with any application they knew to be hurtful to the kingdom, on account of any petty intereft that might accrue to them; but applications, made by particular bodies of men, were so often found to point out advantage to the public at large, that parliament had found it wife to accede to them.- Any man might perceive the present to be one of them.

Mr. Cuffe and Sir Francis Hutchinson fpoke in favour of the amendment.

The question being put on the Provoft's amendment, there appeared

For it
Against it

23

51

Ordered, the bill of supply to be engroffed and read this day.

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1783.

Ordered, That all members returned for two or more places fhall make their election, and be ready to answer the call of this Houfe on the 1ft of December next.

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