1 degree of prodigality; he obferved, that fuch a motion ought to be duly confidered; he fuppofed they would next afk falaries for the private secretaries, the coachman, the cook, and the Caftle fcullion boys. Attorney General-This motion is to prevent fecretaries from obtaining patent places. This has been the cafe with those who now enjoy the place of mafter of the rolls, the chancellor of the exchequer, clerk of the hanaper, the clerk of the council, and the vice-treafurers, who all spend their incomes out of the kingdom. There is but one exception; (alluding to Sir John Blaquiere) he was fecretary to a late Lord Lieutenant, he has obtained an honourable employment from the bounty of his fovereign, the whole income of which he expends entirely in this kingdom, and is now become a citizen here. The place of Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant should be the object of the honcurable ambition of perfons of rank in their own country, of perfonal credit and influence; of fuch credit as may influence the measures of the ministry of Great Britain. Mr. Alexander Montgomery.-We are voting away the purfe of the nation to increase the falaries of the Lord Lieutenant and his Secretary.I beg gentlemen to confider what the Secretaries of the Lord Lieutenant have had: One Lord Lieutenant's Secretary has had a house in the park worth 50,000l. I think the Secretaries fhould fupport one another. If the prefent Lord Lieutenant's Secretary keeps his promifes with us, I think he woud deferve it better than any one else. Sir Henry Cavendijb.-The Right Hon. Gentleman will keep his promises if gentlemen will let him. Gentlemen may vote away 30,000l. or 40,000l. at a time. You have increased the salary of the Lord Lieutenant, and now you are asked to increase the falary of the Secretary 2500l. per year. The House ought to have time to confider this motion, It is not the perfon I allude to it is the office. It has been mentioned that the vicetreasurers spend their incomes out of this kingdom; but I know one vice-treasurer (alluding, it is fuppofed, to Mr. Flood) who, if he had continued in that office, would have spent its income in this country. Mr. Cuffe.-The expences of the Secretary have very much increased. Mr. Parfons obferved, that the Lord Lieutenant and his Secretary were like the bishops of old, who used to cry on their promotions, Nolo Epifcopari. Mr. Kearney was alfo against it. Hon. Wesley Pole moved the increase might be only 1500%. Sir Henry Cavendib faid, I am against this unceasing prodigality of the public money; our manufacturers are ftarving; rather give this enormous fum in bounties, than pamper the rich; feed the hungry and the ftarving before you doubly cloath the richeconomy was promifed, but prodigality is daily practifedthere must be an end of it-the nation finks under it, and debt muft accumulate. Mr. Corry. I rife to exprefs my disapprobation of granting additional falaries, more efpecially when economy was recommended in the fpeech; but that economy was refpecting the Genevans. Sir John Blaquiere.-I would be willing to make my motion agreeable to the House; I move, that instead of 2500l. per year, it be amended to 2000l. per year. The queftion was put, whether the amendment of the words 1500l. per year, do stand a part of his motion ? Ayes, 21. 86 The queftion being put on the original motion, with the amendment of 2000l. per year, Ayes, 71 28 Sir John Blaquiere prefented a petition from the filk manufacturers of the city of Dublin. Order of the day for going into the heads of a bill for laying additional duties on wine, hides, tallow, &c.-Deferred to Monday. Ordered alfo, the third reading of the act for granting to his Majefty, his heirs and fucceffors, feveral duties on stamped vellum, parchment, and paper, be on Monday. MONDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 1783. The following gentlemen were, by ballot, chofen to be a committee to try the merits of the petition, complaining of an undue election and return for the city of Cork: Nicholas Westby, Efq; Cha. Powell Leflie, Efq; Hon. Den. Browne, Hon. Edw. Ward, T. Burgh, (of Athboy) Efq; Mr. Gardiner made feveral motions for papers relative to the exportation of manufactures; which were ordered. Mr. Hartley faid he had a petition to prefent of the utmost confequence to this kingdom, which he should preface by obferving, that during the late war an act had paffed in England, fufpending a part of the act of navigation, by admitting the entry of tobaccos from neutral places, but as Ireland was not confidered in that light, the importation of tobaccos from this country to Great Britain, was confequently prohibited; fo that our merchants are precluded from fending a fingle hoghead to England, while the merchants of that kingdom, when they have more tobacco than they can readily fell, may pour in as much as they please into Ireland, to the ruin and deftruction of the American and Weft India trade, we have fo dearly purchafed. He therefore offered a petition from the merchants conftituting the Council of the Chamber of Commerce. Mr. Pelham faid, that a petition from the merchants, of Dublin ought to meet with every refpect; but the navigation act was a very old law, and had been adopted by Ireland. Mr. Foster-Whenever this queftion comes to be debated, I will fhew that it is one of the most important that can come before the Houfe; it is no lefs than "whether we fhall take advantage of our national fituation or not?" It is a question that deferves our utmoft attention, and I am happy to fee it fo refpectably brought forward as by the Hon. Gentleman who reprefents the city of Dublin. The navigation act prohibits the importation of goods into Great-Britain or Ireland, from any place but the place of their growth; and by the late qualification of that act, they were allowed to be imported from neutral places. Ireland is not a neutral place, but a nation in ftricteft amity, and is therefore excluded from the benefit of this trade, at the fame time England may fend these goods hither: now, in my opinion, the two countries should stand on the fame footing, and it requires no new law to regulate this bufinefs, it only requires that the old law fhould be conftrued in the fame manner in both nations; for if Britain will not receive these goods from Ireland, neither fhould Ireland receive them from Britain. Mr. Fitzgibbon-I hope the ftyle of this petition will be changed, as I would give all due confideration to a question of this magnitude, but cannot confent to receive a petition from a body of men ftyling themselves-a council of a chamber of commerce-a title utterly unknown to the house, either as a chartered, or a corporate body, and therefore howfoever refpectable the petitioners, this House can take no cognizance of the petition. Mr. Huffey-It was but laft week that the House received a petition under this very title. Attorney General-It was not received without objection: I did object to it, though too late, for the question had been decided to receive it. 1 Mr. Beresford-I have great refpect for the merchants, who, I am told, form what is called the chamber of commerce; but this House cannot recognize a body unknown to law; nor indeed have the merchants any caufe to complain on this account, as they may come before us with a title much fuperior to that which they have affumed-they may come as the guild of merchants of the city of Dublin, or as individual merchants. Mr. Huffey-They do come before us as merchants; the title of the petition is that " of merchants compofing the chamber of commerce." It is the undoubted and unalienable right of the fubject to petition parliament, and on a queftion of trade. It is highly indecent to reject the petition of a moft refpectable body of merchants, even if it was deficient in point of style, which does not appear to be the present cafe. Mr. Fitzgibbon-I must still object to receiving or reading this petition until the title of it fhall be altered. The Hon. Gentleman fays, compofing the chamber of commerce, that is, the very thing we do not know; what is the chamber of commerce? merely a felf-erected body, and the name a title ufurped: If thofe gentlemen who compofe the chamber of commerce will condefcend to apply to parliament, by their own proper names, they very fure of a favourable attention. may be Sir H. Cavendifb.-The Hon. Gentleman who brought in this petition cannot alter the title of it; the House ought to receive it as it is; and I warn gentlemen to beware of curtailing the liberty of the subject, or abridging their privileges. Mr. Hartley.-I have not communicated with the gentlemen who figned this petition, and therefore I cannot take upon me to alter the ftyle of it. Mr. Fitzgibbon moved the order of the day. Mr. Molyneux complained, that inftead of previous questions, the other fide of the Houfe had too often made ufe of the order of the day to defeat the intentions of gentlemen who were anxious for their country's fervice. Mr. Mafon.-The Hon. Gentleman who brought forward this petition has declared, that he cannot make any alteration in the ftyle of it. I for the prefent confider it as difmiffed, and call for the order of the day; for however highly I may refpect those perfons who are faid to compofe what is called the council of the chamber of commerce, their ftyle is totally unknown to the conftitution they are neither a body corporate or politic, by charter or by act of parliament, and therefore their petition cannot be received unless they put their names to it. Mr. Daly. To every matter which refpects commerce, I am ready to pay the utmoft attention, as to the foundation on which the future hopes of this country are built, and am therefore for entering into the business propofed by this petition; but it is firft neceffary I fhould know who the petitioners are, and for what purpose they should fign their names to it, for if not, this House can take no cognizance of it. Should we begin a practice of receiving petitions figned by nobody, we might be for ever plagued with trifling, groundless or feditious petitions; for which reafon we must refpect our own orders, and receive none but fuch as have annexed to them the names of persons actually responsible for their contents. Sir Edward Newenham.-The mover cannot alter the title of the petition; it would be forgery-the members of that council are men of character and public virtue; they will not stoop to alter their title to pleafe the whim of this Houfe.-Will you refuse to receive the petitions of the people? Will you refufe to receive the petitions of thofe merchants, by whofe induftry the revenues of the crown are fupported?-If that be your fyftem, you abfolutely diffolve the bonds of the governing and governed. You never thought of moving previous queftions when you were voting falaries to Viceroys and Secretaries; but when the main pillars of the ftate petition you, you treat them with contempt. The people muft fubmit to conftant infults and injuftice. The petition is figned by your worthy member, who prefents it; it is figned by a refpectable merchant, Mr. Marfton. Are not thefe names enough to give it a fanction? Right Hon. John Scott.-I really think you have made this a matter of importance, which in its own nature might have been eafily accommodated. There is no man in the Houfe who will not allow that Mr. Hartley's name is in itself fufficient to gain this petition every degree of attention, nor does he require the ftrength of an ufurped title, unknown to law, to give him confequence-If thofe men ufurp the title of the council of the chamber of commerce, another body of merchants may affume another title, and then we shall have merchant against merchant; but I fay Mr. Hartley's name gives infinitely more dignity and weight to this petition than a thoufand ufurped titles of prefident and vice prefident of the council of the chamber of commerce-titles that we in vain look for in the ftatute book or in our journals, or in the charters of corporations. Suppofe a ftranger was to fearch for them, he would find them inere nullities. The affumption of these high founding titles between merchant and merchant is unjuft; they have no right to baptize themfelves by general aggregate names-I honour the profellion of a merchant as much as any man, and I am as defirous to promote the commerce of this country; for which reafons I wish to have the petition before the House, and this can only be done by withdrawing it, and altering the ftyle in fuch a manner that it may be fit for us to receive. Mr. Brownlow-This is a petition of great importance, and fhould have weight with the other fide of the Houfe. If there were |