butter from England. He faid that many perfons made ufe of oil as a fubititute for butter. Being queftioned about falt, he faid, that a number of private falt-works were carried on in Portugal, but the price of falt was under the control of the crown, and it must be of a pure quality. That veffels are loaded with falt by rotation. That the crown does receive great tevenues from the falt. That the duty on falt to foreigners is much more than to natives; as the port charges were fomething lefs. If a trade was established with Portugal, he believed the amount of their imports from Ireland would be 100,000l. per annum, probably might exceed that.-House resumed.

Mr. Fofter reported fome progrefs, and asked leave to fit again. -Granted.

Mr. Molyneux apologized for having, inconfiderable as he was, given notice, that he fhould on this night move for an abfentee tax, as he had imagined there was an abfolute necessity that it fhould be moved while the committee of ways and means fat; but as he understood it was to be kept open on account of the protecting duties, he would defer his motion until next Monday, in hopes that gentlemen would turn a fubject of such magnitude in their thoughts, and give him that afliftance and fupport his inexperience fo much required. He also mentioned, that on Saturday next, he would make another motion, of which he had already given notice, refpecting an addition to the falary of the Lord Lieutenants of this kingdom.

Mr. Hartley prefented a petition to the Houfe from the corporation of hatters, complaining of the great exportation of rabbitfur, which though worth eleven fhillings per pound, was only fubject to a duty of two pence halfpenny; and that British hats were fubject here to a trifling duty, while our hats were prohibited entry into England; and praying relief. Ordered, that the faid petition be referred to the committee of ways and

means.

Mr. Hartley then moved, that the proper officer do lay before the Houfe, the quantity of rabbit-skins and furs exported from this kingdom; and alfo the quantity of hats made of faid fur annually imported. Ordered accordingly.

Sir Henry Cavendish obferved, that though it was generally allowed that the number of judges in our courts was too fmall for the vast business in which they were engaged, yet government, for political purposes, fuffered even a deficiency of that number, to the manifeft detriment of the public; he therefore gave notice, that he would move an addrefs to his Majefty, that he would be graciously pleafed to complete the number of the judges.

Lord Kilwarlin moved, that the Clerk fhould read the order of the Houfe, requiring the attendance of the perfons petitioning against him; which being done, he moved that the fame be difcharged.

He was feconded by Mr. Ward.

Mr. Fitzgibbon faid, that in moving the order now in queftion, he thought he had done his duty, and that having acquitted himfelf in that point, he was perfectly fatisfied, and indifferent as to the manner in which the House should now difpofe of the order.

Sir Henry Hartflange faid, that to fuffer perfons to present groundlefs and vexatious petitions with impunity, was trifling with the order of the Houfe, and treating with great cruelty the perfons petitioned againft, he would therefore oppose the difcharging of the order. On a divifion there appeared,

For difcharging the order,
Against it,

84

41

Tellers for the ayes, Lord Kilwarlin and Mr. Ward.

noes, Mr. Fitzgibbon and Mr. Marcus Beresford. Lord Delvin moved, that the order expreffing the cenfure of the Houfe against fuch perfons as fhould prefent frivolous,' vexatious, or groundlefs petitions, fhould be difcharged, as the laft refolution of the Houfe had in effect deftroyed its operation.

He was feconded by Mr. Marcus Beresford, who faid, that he entertained no doubt but the Houfe would comply, as he would be ashamed to fuppofe the House a spectator of perfons that would not deal impartial juftice to all.

Mr. Metge hoped Lord Delvin would withdraw his motion, when he confidered that the principal petitioner had been punished, by being ordered to pay the expences incurred by his petition, and the others were cenfured by the order having been on the journals, though now discharged.

Lord Kilwarlin again intreated gentlemen to let every trace of this bufinefs, fo far as poffible, be done away.

Lord Delvin's motion was negatived without a divifion.

The House then refolved itself into a committee of ways means, Right Hon. John Fofter in the chair.

and

The Attorney General faid, that in confidering the nature of the tax by him propofed to be laid upon private families brewing for their own confumption, feveral difficulties had arifen, and as even the brewers, for whofe benefit it was chiefly intended, were not well fatisfied of its utility, he would for the prefent lay it afide; and recommended to gentlemen, that against the next feffion they would give the fubject ferious confideration, and come prepared to decide what alterations in the excife laws would be advantageous to the brewery of Ireland, and whether

any and what proportion of the excife should be laid upon

malt.

Mr. Bube.-As I entertain a perfect refpect for every opinion of the Right Hon. Gentleman who propofed this fubject to the Houfe, and who now, impelled by his regard to the public, defires to have it referred to more mature confideration, I did endeavour to collect my thoughts upon this fubject, and will, if the committee fhall not think it too great an intrufion upon their time, lay the refult before them-[hear! hear!] It appears to me extremely eafy to put an end to all fraud in this branch of the revenue, to protect the public brewer, and to lay the tax equally upon all perfons who confume malt liquors. If this can be fhewn to the fatisfaction of the Houfe, I am convinced when the queftion comes on, it will have the fupport of every member, for there is no man fo illiberal as to enter into the paltry confideration of what he can fave by letting the tax lie in its prefent fituation, nor can any objection be made on behalf of the hereditary revenue; for what will be taken from that with one hand, will be amply restored with the other.

I would propofe to take off two fhillings per barrel from ale, and lay three pence farthing per ftone on malt, by which means the whole burthen of the addition that would thus be made to the revenue, would fall juft where it ought to fall, on the opulent and on the fraudulent. Mr. Smith, that judicious writer, in his inquiry into the nature and caufes of the wealth of nations, fpeaking of the malt tax in England, feems to confider it as one of the most equitable and productive taxes that that wife nation has impofed; nay, he goes fo far as to think that great advantage would arife by laying the whole excife of beer and ale upon the malt. As to our own country, I am convinced it would be the moft powerful check to fraud, not only in the brewery but in the distillery, as the difficulty of making a large quantity of malt is greater than that of brewing or diftilling a large quantity of liquor. If the idea I have mentioned fhould be received, even the temptation of fraud will be the lefs, for by dividing the tax between the maltfter and the brewer, either of them can by fraud gain but half of the excife now paid, though he will run the rifque of the whole penalty on being detected; and as to the hereditary revenue, though fourpence halfpenny will be taken off every barrel of ale, yet if the excife on double the number of those which now pay duty fhall then be received (and my opinion is, that it will be much more than doubled) the hereditary revenue fuffers no diminution.

Sir Henry Cavendish.-If the Hon. Member would exercise his talents to devife means of taking off fome of the taxes which opprefs this country, we fhould be much more obliged to him than for his ingenuity in laying additional taxes on.

L

Mr. Bube. This is not a new tax, for what is laid on one part of the manufacture is taken off the other.

The Provost faid, he was ever averfe to extending the laws of excife, and never would confent to fuch an extenfion but in cafe of urgent neceflity; to the prefent plan he objected, that it was in fome fenfe a land tax, as being laid upon the produce of the land. That it was a tax upon the induftry of the farmer, and that it rendered private houfes fubject to odious vifits of the excifeman at all hours, which he confidered as an high infringement of the fubject's liberty. He therefore hoped that the introduction of excifemen into private houses would make no part of the prefent plan, which had fome advantageous circumftances, particularly as being more equitable. He faid that he was always averfe from giving power to any revenue officer to come into any gentleman's houfe to fearch, as it would be injurious to liberty. In 1733, Sir Robert Walpole propofed an excife on tobacco, and though the regulation was a very good one, yet it was oppofed, as it affected the conftitution. He faid, he had been detained for fome days from the Houfe by fevere illness, and that he had from that caufe been reprefented in the public prints as one, who, though the reprefentative of a great trading city, neglected to attend the interefts of his country, and his own duty in parliament; he appealed to the House what weight ought to be given to fuch a charge, when in three and twenty years he had been abfent but upon one queftion of any importance, and that upon every queftion he was known to deliver his opinion freely.

Mr. Bube explained, that he had no intention of making private houfes liable to the vifits of excifemen.

Mr. Dennis Brown.-If I had a house, and a revenue officer was to come to it; I would firft afk him what he wanted, and fecondly, I fhould blow his brains out.

Mr. Bube. It never was my idea to run revenue-officers into fo much danger, or prefent to the Hon. Gentleman persons to whom he has fuch a strong antipathy.

The Attorney General then proceeded to acquaint the House, that in order to provide for the 15,000l. granted for premiums on the fale of manufactures, he moved, "That the allowance or discount on the duties of cuftoms and excife, for prompt payment of fix and ten per cent. be difcontinued."

Mr. Hartley faid,-I am furprized after the declaration made a few nights ago, by the Right Hon. Gentleman on the floor, (Mr. Pelham) that there would be no new taxes proposed in this committee, to hear it now moved for. I cannot but confider the ftriking off fo confiderable an allowance made to the merchants as a new tax, nor can any modification make it otherwise, as thereby he certainly pays more duties than he did before, and

that too in feveral instances, muft fall on the materials of manufactured filk and many others.

The Attorney General wifhed, if the Hon. Gentleman disliked this mode of proceeding for the encouragement of our manufac turers, he would propofe fome fubftitute.

Mr. Hartley replied,-I thall not propofe any, for I acknowledge myself no friend to the manner of difpofing of that 15,000l. by premiums on the fale of manufactures, being clearly of opinion, that private grants to fuch manufacturers as merited encouragement would be more effectual; it is tampering with our diftreffes fhould either mode be adopted, for I am certain that nothing but protecting duties can ferve us in this matter; and I lament to fee an English intereft conftantly outweigh every other confideration. I am told, indeed, that the committee of ways and means will be kept open, but when the fupply is compleated, I have little hope from what will be done afterwards.

Mr. Griffith asked, how were the grants provided for in former times when the encouragement to our manufacturers was paid them in fums of money? And will the Right Hon. Gentleman now again fairly anfwer, is the committee of ways and means to be kept open for the protecting duties; and if so, what day will that bufinefs be fuffered to come on?

Mr. Fofter faid, that after the committee of ways and means fhould arrange the provifions for the supply, the committee would ftill be kept open for the purpose of commercial regulations.

Mr. Warburton contended that the protecting duties fhould now be agitated, fo as to make a part of the fupply, else he had little hopes of them when the business of government was done.

Major Doyle expreffed his disapprobation of the measure for two reafons the first it was a new tax, and the second as it was in→ tended as a fubftiiute for protecting duties.

The Attorney General faid, the whole queftion was,—will you, or will you not provide at the rate of 12,000l. per ann. for the payment of premiums on our manufactures? And what, continued he, has this to fay to protecting duties?

Major Doyle replied,-it has to protecting duties, because it is meant to defeat them: and we wish to connect and tack them to the present fupply.

Mr. Fitzgibbon faid, he did not understand what was meant; if any thing at all was meant by protecting duties, and be they what they would, they had not the leaft connexion with the prefent queftion.

Mr. Griffith complained that his queries were not answered, particularly in what manner former grants were provided for. Mr. Fitzgibbon replied,-let the gentleman read over the old money bills.