to manage the national revenues with the utmoft frugality, and make every poffible faving in the different departments.

It is not for me to doubt the good intentions of a former government; on the contrary, I believe that government had the very beft difpofition towards this country; but I muft fay, that in the offices I find no trace of any plan of retrenchment, except in the barrack department, for which much praife is due. At prefent I think government will have an opportunity of making a very great faving in the extraordinaries of the army.

Mr. O'Hara did not imagine the Hon. Gentleman would attack the motion he made the other night, by calling it a job-it was no job-it was only to enlarge the quay of Sligo-He allowed, Sligo was not confiderable for its imports; its chief trade was in its exports. He faid, that it had been his intention to move an amendment to the refolution before the Houfe, in hopes of making fome faving for the public, in a manner not liable to objection from either fide of the Houfe; and that though he had voted against the addrefs which first introduced the fubject of the military establishment, as not ufing the ordinary terms of compliment, not exprefling one principal motive for the reduction, nor any attention to the common interests of the empire, yet, he must not be fuppofed to relinquith his wifh for economy. He then faid, that his object had been to reduce our number of regiments, but not our number of inen, that we might have our establishment complete, without the expence of officers of many reigments. But he found the regiments intended were not to be skeleton regiments; and that the faving between the regiments intended, and fuch as he was to have recommended, would not produce a greater faving than about 12,000l. a year, and that it was not worth while to diftrefs the officers of a few regiments, by reducing them to half-pay, in order to make fuch a faving; that it was our bufinefs to confider the two kingdoms as united in intereft, and our army as the army of the empire; for if we had no natural connexion with Great Britain, what would we not give for fuch an ally.

Mr. Pele contended that the grant to Sligo was a job; for a gentleman high in office had declared that the expences were as great as the revenue.

Col. Wynne corroborated what Mr. O'Hara had faid.

Mr. Griffith faid, the queftions of retrenchment and reduction had been fo often and fo ably treated in that Houfe, that very little remained to be urged by any one, who wished to avoid the beaten track of argument on thofe ungrateful fubjects. One thing had, however, occurred to him, which had been overlooked by every gentleman who had taken part in this or in former debates, and that was the grofs inconfiftency of govern ment. In England, the minifter had thought proper to flatter

the kingdom with the reduction of the ftanding army, because they knew it was a popular and conflitutional meafure, and becaufe they were convinced that their very existence as a miniftry depended on their obtaining the good opinion and confidence of the people.

But, Sir, they have no fuch apprehenfions for the people of Ireland; they think that as long as they can maintain a venal majority in this Houfe, they may laugh at the murmurs of the people; and though they have not even the fhadow of an argument to produce in favour of the immenfe and unneceffary army which they wish to load this kingdom with, they fit fecure in a decided majority.- -But, Sir, fince we are to be overwhelmed with an intolerable expence, let us endeavour to find out fome means for the fupport of it. It is not unufual, even of late years, (and he faid it was certainly the practice in former days,) when the people voted a fupply to government, to add to it fome popular and favourite with. He faid, it was not his intention to embarrass the Right Hon. Secretary with any amendment for this purpose; but before the fupply was granted, he wifhed to hear the fentiments of the Treafury-bench on a very important fubject to this country, he meant the protecting duties, on which depended the very being of manufactures and commerce in this kingdom, and without which our free trade would be a dead letter. He faid, that he thought an explanation on this subject the more neceffary, as the answer which an honourable and very refpectable gentleman (Mr. Hartley) had received from a Right Hon. Gentleman, who was confidered the firft authority in this country in commercial matters, (Mr. Fofter) to a question which he had asked relative to protecting duties, was by no means fatisfactory-It, therefore, became neceffary for the House to have the matter explained.

Mr. Griffith continued to obferve, that a great deal had been faid with respect to gratitude to England; that, for his part, he hoped he felt and practifed that virtue as much as any man, but, he confeffed, he thought he had lately heard the word misapplied. We were all fenfible of the long political fervitude we had fuffered under from England, but when the report of the committee, that was now enquiring into the ftate of our trade and manufactures fhould be made to this House, he believed he should hear no more of gratitude to England, because it would be seen by that report, that the political tyranny of Great Britain over this country, had been lenity itself to this infamous fyftem of commercial oppreflion.

Sir Henry Cavendish faid, that if the Right Hon. Secretary had a wish to œconomise, he had no oppofition to fear from the courtly gentlemen who fat around him, for fuch was their

K

complaifance to fecretaries, that they would not contradict him even in the thing which of all others they least loved-economy.

This was the third time he had voted for a reduction of the army: -It is there a confiderable faving may be made; it is a large field; it will strike at the root of expences, and tend in a great measure to the equalization of the revenue.

Captain Burgh declared himself against the motion: why not leave the army on the fame footing it was 15 years ago? the expences of it centre in the kingdom-your revenue is annually increafing from 100,000l. to 200,000l.-England has given convoys to your commerce, from country to country, without any expence to you; and why not fupport an army -'tis the army

of the empire.

Mr. Dudley Huffey was of opinion, that the queftion came to this point; can the circumstances of this nation afford 12,000 men? can any man lay his hand on his heart, and say, that 9009 men are not fufficient for its defence?

Mr. George Pinfonby never heard the late administration had formed any plan of œconomy; if they had, why not brought forward now, by fome of their friends, and laid on the table?

Mr. Pole rofe to explain; he did not fay that they had formed a plan, but he had authority to fay, that if they had remained, a plan would have now been on the table of the House.

Major Doyle.-There are two points which I think are univerfally admitted-first, that we make a part of the empire; and fecond, that we should furnish our quota of defence; the hand of œconomy then can only be extended to the pay of our establishment; where are we to begin? is it with the vast revenue of the fubaltern, or the enormous falary of the private foldier? Who will defire to deprive of fubfiftence the hoary veteran, who in many a well fought field has expofed himself for his country's fervice? or the brave young man, who returns home covered with wounds, and deprived of conftitution, but relying on his country's generofity, that he will not abandon thofe, who in the day of danger never abandoned her? Who will fet before us the regulations of a defpotic monarch, the King of Pruflia, as examples for the imitation of a free people? No man then I am fure, will wish to diftrefs or injure our brave foldiers and fellow-citizens; but I will point out to gentlemen on this fide of tfie House, where an attack may be made with fuccefs. I have intelligence of a large flying party of the enemy, which, though well paid, are ill armed for defence; they are chiefly compofed of foreign mercenaries, and as the oppofite general is a fkilful and experienced man, I think he will be more ready to facrifice them, than hazard his native troops; and my opinion is, that they may be cut off to a man. The party I fpeak of is the band of penfioners; let us attack them and I doubt not of victory; and as they have been common mo

roders and defpoilers of our country, if we fucceed, let them be cut off without mercy.

I will therefore, at a convenient time, move to have the penfion lift taken into confideration.

Hon. James Brown spoke against the amendment, and said we were running the race of ruin.

Mr. Kearney faid, whatever the circumftances of the nation might have been formerly, fo as to require a ftanding army, to repel a foreign invafion, and prevent the rifing of our own people to join the enemy, no fuch thing was now to be apprehended; for upon the late rumour in Munster, that there was a landing of the enemy, the people were very much terrified, and gave the foldiers all the refreshments they could procure on their march; no fuch apprehenfion fhould any longer exift in the mind of any gentleman. If France had ever intended to invade this kingdom, The would never have difbanded her brigade.

Mr. Molyneux propofed to the Secretary the ftriking off the deputy of the judge advocate-it was a useless employment, and not known in England-there was fcarcely any confiderable military employment in this kingdom to which there was not annexed a deputy. A reform has been propofed in the revenue; and there is room for re iuction on the ftaff eftablishment.

General Luttrell faid, there was no army in Europe of 10 or 12000 men, had fo few staff officers-two lieutenant generals, and three major generals-In 1769, there were five general officers befides the commander in chief. The gentleman himself had been in the military line, and he fhould have informed himself better, before he talked of the ftaff establishment.

Mr. Molyneux, in reply, faid he had a noble lord in his eye, (Lord Charlemont) who had gone through more reviews than fixteen generals, and before whom he had the honour of being reviewed, and no general of them all could go through it bet

ter.

General Luttrell declared he did not make any allufion.

Sir Henry Hartftonge declared he would vote with government on this queftion, if the generals, lieutenant generals, and major generals would vote for the amendment.

Mr. Parfons.—Administration has declared itself a friend to œconomy. Is not a reduction of the army œconomy? and why do they oppose it? because they are not friends to retrenchment; they talk of it, and nothing more. My great objection is, that it is unconftitutional to keep a larger army in the kingdom, than what is abfolutely neceffary for its defence-it is only on a principle of neceffity, that a ftanding army is at all tolerable. He faid that it was repugnant to the conftitution to keep up a ftanding army in time of peace; that it was never attempted to be fupported in England by the most daring miniftry, but on pretence

of neceffity; and wifhed to fee this administration, who profeffed œconomy, would deign to practise it.

The queftion was then put,
Ayes for the amendment,

Noes against it,

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Tellers for the Ayes, Mr. Denis Browne, and Mr. Moly

neux.

Tellers for the Noes, Major Doyle, and Mr. O'Hara.

Mr. Warburton then propofed another amendment, "becaufe, on the 20th of November, 1782, there were 8219 effective men in this kingdom."

On the queftion being put, that the amendment do ftand part of the refolution, it was negatived without a divifion.

Then the queftion was put, that the House do agree to the report of the committee," That 12,000 men are neceffary for the defence of this kingdom."- -It was carried in the affirmative.

Mr. Skeffington reported from the felect committee, nominated for the trial of the Down election, "That Lord Kilwarlin was duly elected to reprefent the county of Down. That the conduct of Richard Annefley, Efq; High Sheriff of the county of Down, was highly legal and impartial. That the petition of the Right Honourable Robert Stewart, and others, complaining of an undue election, was ill-founded, vexatious and frivolous."

Mr. Fitzgibbon defired that the Clerk fhould read a refolution of the Houfe, entered into early in the fellion.-Resolution read.

"That if any perfon prefer a petition, complaining of an undue election, and that fuch petition fhould prove to be frivolous and vexatious, the Houfe fhould pafs a cenfure on the petitioner."

Sir John Parnell faid, in his opinion the greateft cenfure was the heavy expence that would fall on them.

Mr. Fitzgibbon faid that the petition went not only against the fitting members, but alledged the heaviest charges against the fheriff, an honourable and very worthy member of that House.He then moved, "That the Right Honourable Robert Stewart, and the reft of the petitioners, whofe names are figned to the petition, do attend this Houfe to-morrow morning, in cuftody of the Serjeant at Arms."

Lord Kilwarlin expreffed a very earneft with that Mr. Fitzgibbon would withdraw the motion, as it would distress him very much, that any cenfure fhould be paffed on the Right Honourable Petitioner, or on thofe gentlemen who prefented the feparate petition. Every allowance fhould be made for their fituation; and he appealed to the candour and humanity of the House for