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Mr. Flood propofed the question of adjournment, which was negatived.

The queftion for going into the committee of fupply propofed by Mr. Fofler, was put and carried in the affirmative.

Right Honourable John Foster then moved, "That it be an inftruction to the committee of fupply, to confider what bounties on the fale of woollen cloths, and woollens mixed, cottons and cottons mixed, thread and thread mixed, would beft conduce to encourage these manufactures.

Mr. Hartley faid, he would have no objection to such bounties, if he did not clearly perceive they were meant as a subflitute for protecting duties, which alone can refcue the poor of this country from their prefent miferable ftate. That the duties on wrought goods between this kingdom and England, bere no degree of proportion; for example, on broad cloths imported here from England there is but fix-pence a yard, whereas on the cloths of Ireland brought into England, the enormous duty of two pounds and fixpence fterling was laid; coarfe and narrow cloths from England paid only two-pence per yard here, whereas our cloths of the fame defcription were liable to four fhillings and fix-pence a yard.

Mr. Alcock moved, 'that glass be included in these manufactures which are to receive a bounty on the fale; at least such as is wrought at Waterford,

The Provost fpoke in favour of the glafs manufactory at Cork, and faid an immenfe capital had been funk in this infant manufacture, “but," continued he, "I do not think a bounty on the fale fo efficacious a mode of encouraging this or any other infant manufacture as a fum of money, for when the manufacture is brought to perfection it does not require bounties: Ifhall therefore, if the petition of the giafs manufacture of Cork is not attended to, oppofe the granting of any bounties whatever."

Sirefey Colclough defired that copper might be included in the bounties.

Mr. Hartley spoke in favour of filk as an object.

Mr. Corry fpoke in favour of manufacturers in paper-making, one manufactory of which had been begun at Newry.

Mr. Fefter objected to any addition to his motion.

Mr. Molyneux made fome pertinent obfervations on the conduct of administration, who directed their œconomy to grants for encouraging manufactures, while they encourage profufion in other refpećts and faid the night was now too far fpent to enter upon the committee of fupply, and therefore moved, that the Houfe do adjourn.

In confequence of which the queftion being put, there appeared for the adjournment,

Ayes,
Noes,

Majority,

47

93

46

The question was then put, for including copper, filk, and glafs, in the inftructions, when it was negatived without a divifion. The original motion of Mr. Fefter, refpecting the bounties, was then carried, nem. con.

Mr. Foffer then moved, "That it be an inftruction to the committee of fupply, to take into confideration that part of the Lord Lieutenant's fpeech that refpected the establishments; the report from the committee of accounts; and the feveral applications for encouragement to manufactures and public works."-Passed nem.

con.

Mr. Hartley faid, that as by an unavoidable delay, the examination into the merits of the petition from the corporation of the city of Dublin, for aid in carrying on the ballaft office, had not been fully entered into, he moved, "That the faid petition be referred to the committee of supply.'

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No question was put on the motion, but the petition was ordered to lie on the table.

The order of the day being read, for entering into the committee of fupply,

The Houfe accordingly refolved into the grand committee of Supply.

The Right Honourable John Foster in the chair.

The Attorney General then began the first of his official motions, viz.

Refolved, "That the debt of this nation at Lady-day, 1783, was 1,919,3867.

"That the nation is alfo liable to the intereft of life annuities on the fum of 440,000l. at feven per cent.-Agreed to,

nem.con.

"That the fupply to be granted to his Majefty, to commence the 25th December, 1783, continue for fifteen months, that is, until the 25th of March, 1785."

Sir Edward Newenham faid, that it was the general fenfe of the nation, that the money bills thould not exceed the term of fix months; he moved as an amendment, "That the words Six "MONTHS be inferted inftead of fifteen months.”

Mr. Hartley declared he feconded the motion, as he was inftructed to vote for no bill of fupply for a longer term than fix months, until the great national meafures now pending be de

cided.

The queftion on the amendment was then put, when

there appeared,

Ayes for the amendment,

Noes,

Majority against the Six Months Money Bill

32

92

60

The Atorney General then made two motions refpecting the military establishment, on the large fcale of 15,000 effective men being maintained for the defence of the nation, 12,000 always to remain therein

Mr. Molyneux and Mr. Montgomery of Cavan threw out some farcaftic obfervations on the measure of keeping this force.

The queftion paffed without a divifion; and the House adjourned to next day.

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 11, 1783.

Two Members fworn.-The call of t'e defaulters continued, and several ordered into the cuftody of the Serjeant at Arms.

The Right Honourable the Speaker, reported that he had, purfuant to order, communicated by letter, to Admiral Lord Howe, the refolution of this House of the 16th of October laft, to which his Lordship was pleafed by letter, to return the following anfwer:

SIR,

London, November the 4th, 1783.

ON my return to town I received your letter of the 17th of October, inclofing the moft honourable teftimony of the opinion which the Commons of Ireland entertain of my conduct in difcharge of the truft which his Majefty was moft graciously pleafed to repofe in me for the relief of Gibraltar.

Imprefied as I am, with a due fenfe of this flattering diftinction, I cannot but at the fame time exprefs my acknowledgments to you, for the very obliging terms in which you have communicated to me, the unanimous approbation of that refpectable affembly.

I have the honour to be,
With great efteem and regard,
Sir,

To the Right Honourable the

Speaker of the Houfe of

Commons of Ireland.

Your moft obedient and

moft humble Servant,
HOWE.

Mr. Hartley delivered the report from the committee appointed to take into confideration the petition of Benjamin Haughton. Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. Grattan moved, "That a committee be appointed to enquire into the expence of collecting the revenue."

The proceeding on this motion was interrupted by Mr. George Penfonby, who moved, "that leave be given him to bring in a bill for altering the law relative to Cuftodiums." Granted accordingly.

He then obferved, fome fevere animadverfions had lately been made from the other fide of the House, on the raising of fencible or provincial regiments, and an enquiry threatened; now if fome gentleman from that fide did not by this day week make some motion on that fubject, he should himself move upon it.

Sir Henry Cavendish faid, that there were fo many papers and accounts to be looked into before that bufinefs could be brought forward, that one week was too short a period.

Mr. Grattan then refumed his motion refpecting the collection of the revenue, and faid, he was convinced it was an object of retrenchment, as though there was an increase in the revenue laft year of 150,000l. it would have been much more if the collection had not amounted to 162. per cent; and he was certain that it could be collected at an expence of 10 per cent.

Right Hon. Mr. Beresford said, that the more minutely the accounts of the revenue department were infpected, the greater would be his fatisfaction, and that of the gentlemen with whom he had the honour to fit at the revenue board; however, the amount of the collection, though much greater than he wished, was not fo great as the Right Hon. Gentleman had ftated, for in it he had included the incidental expences of the Cuftom-House, and great works now carrying on; were thefe deducted, the expence of collection would not amount to fourteen per cent. though formerly it had been eighteen: befides, in comparing this country with England, gentlemen had fallen into a mistake. A fingle great diftiller in England, pays more duty than an whole country here, though he requires but one officer to watch him, and the country perhaps forty. He faid, there are twenty-fix ports in Ireland, of which nineteen do not produce a revenue equal to the expence of guarding them; and the whole balance in the public favour, arifes from feven ports, Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Belfaft, Limerick, Derry, and Newry, though the neceffity of watching the inferior ports must be obvious to every man. Now it is faid, that in England the revenue is collected at feven per cent. but of those seven ports that have been mentioned, the revenue is collected at five and ninetenths per cent. the manner of estimating the expence of collecting in England, and comparing it with this country is unfair; England has been a

market for the whole world, goods have been imported there and paid heavy duties, for the purpose of re-exportation when thofe duties are drawn back. This increases her fictitious revenue, though it does not add one farthing to the real one; and this reduces the relative proportion of expence in the collection.

The revenue board of Ireland, which was originally conftituted for revenue bufinefs only, has had the business and expences of the whole ftate heaped upon it. The expence of paffing bills, and fundry circumftances of the law bufinefs, have raised that particular charge from 1800. per annum, to 4800'. The revenue cruifers, which government employed for convoying troops, did in the last year stand in 32,000l. which is charged as a revenue expence. Nay, the very expreffes which government fends to different places on government affairs must be paid by the revenue board. Thofe things together make a prodigious fum, and it is all charged to the prodigality of the commiflioners of revenue, who are blamed for expences in which they have no manner of concern. For my part, continued he, it is the defire of my heart, that every gentleman in the nation fhould be acquainted with our tranfactions, and that parliament fhould fcrutinize them with the utmost attention. The revenue incidents have many improper charges upon them; and falaries, which if they ought to appear any where, ought to appear upon your establishment.

Mr. Grattan faid, that he would not mention a time for the inveftigation of revenue matters, though he thought parliament fhould take it up fpeedily, and fairly enquire into them. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had very candidly explained to the Houfe the condition of that department. As to the incidents which encreased the expence of collecting, not by indufry but by idlenefs, they fhould be curtailed at prefent, and guarded from abufe in future; for if people who have falaries on that lift, were placed on the penfion liit, parliament would fee them, and ftrike. them off. But as at prefent circumstanced, the revenue incidents might be called a concealed pension list.

Sir John Parnel faid, that to stand back would be a cenfure on the conduct of the commilioners, and would feem as if they feared to bring their tranfactions to light. He admitted there were many abufes in the revenue department; that department was under a particular controul, but he rejoiced that that controul was under the controul of parliament. He invited the Houfe to enter into an examination of the commiflioners conduct, and faid that nothing would more redound to their honour. But there was one thing that might be charged as a blame upon the House; country gentlemen did not teach their tenants an obedience to the revenue laws, and there was amongit all ranks of people a difpofition to oppofe them; every little merchant was ready to inflitute, and verfed in conducting fuits against the revenue; and

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