DECEMBER, 1816. Excise on Spirits—Commissioner of Claims. eral, one thousand one hundred and twenty acres; to each colonel and lieutenant colonel, nine hundred and sixty acres; to each major, eight hundred acres; to each captain, six hundred and forty acres; to each subaltern, four hundred and eighty acres; and to officers of the medical and other staff, who have no rank, in proportion to their pay according to the scale afore said. The bill took the usual course of reading and commitment. THE EXCISE ON SPIRITS. Mr. HARDIN, of Kentucky, rose to propose a resolution to the House. His object in offering it thus early was, that Congress might not make such an impression on the public funds as to make his motion inapplicable. He said he discovered, from the President's Message, that, after meeting every demand on the Treasury, and many of them were of an extraordinary character, arising from the late war, there would remain in the Treasury, at the close of the year, an excess of nine millions of dollars; and also that, on making a fair and accurate calculation of the amount necessary to support the civil list, military and naval establishments, paying the interest, and gradually redeeming the principal of the public debt, there would remain a surplus of five millions of dollars beyond the necessary annual expenditure. In that case, the excise could certainly be dispensed with. He, therefore, meant to make a motion to bring into view that object, before some extraordinary disposition was made of the public money; inasmuch as there was already on the table a bill to establish a National University, the first cost of which was to be $200,000, without taking into view its endowment; another bill for three or four additional Military Academies, which would cost the nation between five hundred thousand and a million of dollars; another for a corps of invalids of 2,000 men, which is to cost a million a year or more; and a proposition to commute the bounties of land given to the soldiers into specie, which will cost perhaps ten millions more. He wished first to see the excise taken off, and then, if any surplus remained, they might talk, if they chose, about Military Academies and Invalid Corps. After adding that the tax in question was a peculiarly oppressive one, and operated with great inequality, Mr. H. offered the following resolution, with a view to call for the consideration of it at a future day: Resolved, That it is expedient to repeal the act, entitled ‘An act to repeal the existing duties on licenses to distillers, and to lay other duties in lieu of those at present imposed on licenses to distillers of spirituous liquors,' except such parts thereof as may enable the Government to collect the sums now due under said act, or may become due before the repeal of said act takes effect." The question being stated, on ordering this resolve to lie on the table Mr. LOWNDES, of South Carolina, said he was glad of the course the gentleman from Kentucky had given to his resolution, supposing that he meant to permit it to lie on the table until the H. or R. annual report of the Secretary of the Treasury should come before the House. When that report should arrive, the view which the gentleman from Kentucky and the House would take of that subject, would be different from that which they would now take. By inferences, drawn from the amount receivable into the Treasury, and not the amount actually accrued; from an amount from which no deductions were made for claims to come in under appropriations of the last session-he was satisfied an erroneous impression had been made on the House by the Message, both in reference to the disposable surplus in the Treasury, and to the proportion between the annual expenses and the annual receipts in the Treasury. From the surplus estimated, must be deducted the amount of appropriations for the payment of demands not yet rendered but forming claims on that surplus. On a full examination and due estimate of the expenses and future receipts into the Treasury, Mr. L. said, he was satisfied even the gentleman from Kentucky would entertain views of this subject widely different from those he now expressed. The motion of Mr. HARDIN lies on the table. COMMISSIONER OF CLAIMS. Mr. FLETCHER, of Kentucky, moved to instruct the Committee of Claims to inquire into the expediency of remunerating Henry Brothers, now of Kentucky, for losses sustained on the Niagara frontier by the United States Army, and the enemy. Mr. FORSYTH, of Georgia, rose to inquire whether this case was not included in the act of last session, for compensating claimants for certain lost or destroyed property. Mr. FLETCHER said, he did not consider it to be included within that law; but, though the case was not embraced by that law, he was satisfied Congress would recognise its justice, and direct it to be paid. Mr. FORSYTH said, his chief object was to take this method of apprizing the House of the fact, that the execution of that law was not suspended, but that under it claims were daily decided, of the same character as that which the gentleman from Kentucky considered not to come within the act. Mr. YANCEY, of North Carolina, said, it was impossible to say whether the case embraced in this resolution was, or was not, proper to be provided for, since none of the circumstances had been stated; but certain it was, that the act of the last session had not authorized the payment of any such claim. Mr. JOHNSON, of Kentucky, said, he was glad to hear the gentleman from Ohio had made his opposition to this motion, not from any opposition to its merits, but to suit a different proposition of his own, which the House had more than once refused to consider, and which he hoped would again be refused whenever he should call it up. The resolution now before the House was one almost, of course, such as would be adopted at the request or suggestion of any member of the House -a mode of proceeding arising from the necessity of the case, documents to support the claim being sent on without any accompanying petition. In relation to the proposition the gentleman had alluded to, it was not before the House now, and could not be debated. Whenever it was, Mr. J. said, he, too, should take occasion to say what he knew of the law relating to the payment for lost property, and of its execution. Mr. FORSYTH said, it was certain, indeed, that his proposition had not been taken up when he asked for it; but it had been only once refused, and he hoped it would not be again. If it were proper here to enter into the question, he thought he could satisfy the House that the course which he had proposed was not improper. There is, said he, a law in existence, under which such claims are settled. The Commissioner dues settle such claims; he has settled them, and would, I presume, settle this claim. He wished the House to be apprized of the fact, that, though there was no law authorizing payment of such claims, the Commissioner acted as if there were. Mr. FLETCHER'S motion having been agreed to nem. con., Mr. FORSYTH called up his motion, in the following words: Resolved, That the President of the United States be, and he is hereby, requested to order the further execution of the said act to be suspended, until the subject shall be disposed of by this House. Mr. FORSYTH said, he thought no man could doubt the propriety of doing something on this subject, if he would properly reflect on it. One part of the act had been suspended by the President, who suggested in his Message the propriety of revising other parts of the act; which proposition, as well as an inquiry into the acts of the Commissioner, was now before a committee of the House. From want of understanding, or from want of integrity, incorrect decisions had certainly been made by the Commissioner. It was a little extraordinary, Mr. F. said, after what had taken place, that the Commissioner should be permitted to execute the remainder of the act-to pass judgments to an indefinite amount; these judgments to be immediately paid at the Treasury, without revision or control. This required some interference on the part of this House. We can only judge what is to come from what is past. We know that erroneous decisions have been made by the Commissioner; and may presume that others will be. Mr. F. said, there appeared to him no reasonable objection to the shape in which he had brought his motion before the House, yet he was not wedded to it. If any other course should be thought better, to attain the same object, he should not object to it. DECEMBER, 1816. pend the operations of a public officer, against which nothing had been alleged? For, Mr. McK. said, he heard no allegation made of incorrect decision in regard to any other class of cases than those coming under the ninth section of the act, which the President had already suspended. He could, therefore, see no necessity or propriety in extending the resolution so widely as to embrace cases, on the decision of which even rumor threw no blame. Besides, the subject was under inquiry by several committees. Why not let the committees already appointed discharge their duty? Why take up the subject, and act thus prematurely? For any decision must be premature, made in the absence of that information which the House had taken the usual and regular mode of obtaining. Mr. GROSVENOR, of New York, rose, he said, to ask whether any answer had yet been received to the call of the House on the President for information on this subject. [Being answered in the negative, Mr. G. proceeded.] He said he would not vote to suspend the execution of any law in which the citizens had a right, without proper documentary evidence before him. Gentlemen might make statements, but on what foundation? Public rumor. After the call on the Executive for information, was this a proper ground, or the proposed a proper mode of proceeding? Before a single document was before the House, it would be a most strange thing to see this House voting to request the suspension of the execution of an act, respecting which so many persons from various parts of the country were attending in this city. He was clearly in favor of waiting till the House had some ground of proceeding. Without going into the question at large, it appeared to him, he said, it would be a most novel proceeding for this House to undertake to request of the President the suspension of a law, by which course an independent public officer would be arrested in the discharge of his official duties. If it were to be done at all, it ought to be by joint resolution. Mr. YANCEY, of North Carolina, said, he had been opposed to this resolution the other day, because he believed, as the President had advised the revision of other parts of the act besides the ninth section, that the Commissioner would not have proceeded, but would of course have stayed his proceedings till Congress had passed on the subject. The Committee of Claims, to whom the President's Message was referred, had taken the subject into serious consideration. This morning they had had the Commissioner before them, and clearly ascertained that he was going on under every section of the act, except the ninth. I take also upon myself, said Mr. Y., the responsibility of stating that some decisions have been made, Mr. MCKEE, of Kentucky, was not in favor of respecting which the Commissioner has been inthis motion. It had been alleged that the deci-terrogated, as much without authority as the cases sions of the Commissioner, under one section of the act, had been incorrect; but even the gentleman from Georgia himself had not alleged that decisions under other branches of the law were incorrect. Why, then, would the gentleman sus which come under the ninth section. He, therefore, believed it was necessary that the execution of the act should be suspended until it was revised. Under other sections of the act decisions had been made, which were as groundless as any DECEMBER, 1816. Commissioner of Claims. which had been made under the ninth section. As for the authority of this House to make the request of the President, and of the President to suspend the law, Mr. Y. said, he had no que tion. The Commissioner was a mere ministerial officer, subject to the control of the Executive; he was expressly made so by the act itself, if he had not been so otherwise. H. of R. money; and some individuals would receive money for claims of a character which Congress, in revising the law, might not choose to allow to others. Mr. B. was, however, clearly of opinion, that the House could not act upon the law, but in conjunction with the Senate; for a suspension is a qualified repeal of a law, and the same power only can repeal which enacts it. Mr. HARDIN, of Kentucky, in referring to the Mr. TAUL, of Kentucky, agreed in the view act for the adjustment of the claims, said, it had which his colleague bad taken of the proposition been familiarly called at the last session the Ken- before the House, which was certainly one of the tucky Horse bill; its title would, it appeared, have most extraordinary proceedings ever heard of. been more appropriate. had it been called a bill At the last session, the act referred to had passed for the benefit of the District of Columbia. He by a large majority, and the Commissioner apdoubted, he said, whether an act could be sus- pointed had proceeded to execute it. The Execpended without the authority of all the branches utive, conceiving the Commissioner to have exof the Government. The section in the act re- pounded this law erroneously, had directed a ferring to the President's control, was designed to particular section to be reserved for the decision establish rules of evidence for the guidance of the of Congress. Mr. T. conceived, that, to pass this Commissioner, and not to take away his inde- resolution, under the circumstances, would be to pendence or right of decision. He said he could pass an indirect censure on the Executive. So not agree that Mr. Lee was merely a ministerial far, said Mr. T., as I have any knowledge of the officer; he was a judicial officer, having a right decisions of the Commissioner, he has given rigid to expound the law, and decide on the evidence constructions to the law, operating with much before him. A constable, sheriff, or marshal, were severity on the Western people, and subjecting ministerial officers, because they executed the them to much trouble and inconvenience, which process issued by the courts; but, he contended, had not been anticipated. Till the House was the President had no more right to remove the explicitly informed that the Commissioner was Commissioner, than to remove the Supreme Court giving erroneous decisions at this time, Mr. T. of the nation. The mode and degree of adjudi- hoped the House would not adopt a course which cation was all that the President had a right to would operate so hardly on claimants from the prescribe. He wished that the resolution should Western country. If confidence is to be refused lie on the table, until it should come before the to this officer, why is not his conduct arraigned in House under other circumstances. The commit a proper manner? Mr. T. said he had not heard tees appointed on the subject would no doubt re-it intimated that confidence was not to be reposed port in a few days. The House, he inclined to think, could not properly pass the resolve; and, if they did, what would be the effect? To the West, the sufferers by the war lived at a distance of seven or eight hundred miles, and their claims had scarcely began to arrive. Suspend this act for a month, he said, and probably three-fourths of those claims would go unmanaged, and the losers receive no compensation for their losses, unless they would employ a couple of lawyers, able lawyers as the Commissioner had notified the people, to carry through their twenty-five dollar claims. The people of the West look to their Representatives to do this business for them. By suspending the law, said he, you prevent this, to the great injury of the claimants. Mr. H. concluded by saying that he was not quite sure that Congress could even suspend the law by joint resolution. in the Commissioner. The only error imputed to him, was in construing the ninth section (providing for payment for houses occupied as military depots) to include houses in which troops were at the time, or had been any short time previously, stationed. Decisions under that construction had been suspended, and Mr. T. hoped the resolution would not be agreed to. Mr. ROBERTSON, of Louisiana, was also opposed to the resolution. If the Commissioner had acted correctly, it was as the law intended, and there was no motive for suspending the law; if incorrectly, the proper course would be to remove the officer. Mr. R. doubted, he said, the power of the Executive to suspend a law of the land; he could see that such a power might be exercised in a manner very dangerous to the liberties of the country, without referring to any particular case. Mr. R. doubted also the propriety of Mr. P. P. BARBOUR, of Virginia, rose to make acting on this subject from the motives suggested the suggestion to the House that they should act by the gentleman from Georgia. The suspenon the subject now, if at all. The House had síon (temporary repeal) of a law should be as debeen informed by the President that erroneous liberate as the passage of the act. Let us not purdecisions had been made by the Commissioner sue a course, in respect to which our powers are under other sections of the law than the ninth; very doubtful. He lived in a distant part of the and the Commissioner, going on in the same spirit country, in regard to which, though many claims of construction, might commit error in many other have been decided nearer the Seat of Governcases. If the law was suspended at all, there- ment, the law is as yet a dead letter, as it is to all fore, it was important it should be done now, for parts of the country at the same distance. In the reason that when the Commissioner has de-regard to the State of Louisiana, not a single claim cided, his decision is a sufficient warrant for the had yet come before the Commissioner; and Mr. R. was not, therefore, disposed to arrest the proceedings of the Commissioner at the moment the distant claims might be expected to present themselves, In regard to the Commissioner, Mr. R. said, his being retained in office by the President was presumptive evidence in his favor. He concluded his remarks by expressing his doubt of the propriety of suspending the operation of a law, and particularly the propriety of this House acting on it. Mr. JOHNSON, of Kentucky, said, the discussion which had already taken place on this subject would save him and the House the pain of many remarks he would otherwise have made. He presumed a little more information in his possession, and known to some others, would enable the House to decide correctly on this question. I venture to say, continued Mr. J., and I believe it is not in opposition to anything suggested by any other gentleman, that since the sitting of Congress there has not been any decision of the Commissioner which any member on this floor has examined, and will say that it contravenes the statutes. I have made it my duty to make proper inquiry, and do say there has not been a decision that any member of this House or the President of the United States would not approve; that the decisions of the Commissioner have been restricted to cases without doubt, and that it is his solemn determination, not out of respect to the Legislature merely, but out of respect to himself, on account of the difficulties in which he might otherwise be involved, to suspend all cases in respect to which a doubt could be raised. He is passing only on cases in which there can be no question. Under this declaration from me, said Mr.J., and knowing that Mr. Lee has rejected, from scrupulous motives, cases which he ought to have passed, I hope the House will not agree to a measure which will arrest the decision of a numerous class of cases of horses lost for want of forage, horses killed in battle, &c. One word as to alarm in regard to the decisions of the Commissioner. Of that gentleman, Mr. J. said, he knew but little; but as much as he did know, he was a man of integrity, and beyond the reach of any imputation of corruption; and, if he had erred, as the members of this House might and did differ about the construction of a law, was it to be expected, Mr. J. asked, that under such a law there would be no diversity of sentiment? Nothing had happened in regard to the law, which I did not expect; the 9th section particularly involved questions of much difficulty, under the laws of nations, and the whole act gave a latitude of discretion to the Commissioner, respecting any exercise of which there must be different opinions-embracing cases respecting which it was as difficult to decide, as to separate the colors of the rainbow. No case of wanton destruction by the enemy had been passed upon by the Commissioner; and any gentleman who took the trouble to examine the evidence, would see that the cases were so strongly made out, that no man in this House would have decided differently from the Commissioner. In regard to the property in our sight, that had been paid for, DECEMBER, 1816. (Carroll's building,) Mr. J. said he found, on examination of the evidence, that it had been proved by the acting Secretary of War, by citizens, and by persons who had belonged to the British army, that the building had been occupied by infantry and cavalry, above and below stairs, and that marks of the occupation, arms, harness, &c., were found through the whole premises; in consequence of which General Ross had directed it to be set on fire by rockets. In cases of this kind, Mr. J. said he would act with delicacy, and would not take a course calculated to destroy the confidence of the people in any man who had passed before the Senate, and who was passing judicially on cases highly important to individuals interested. It was expected there would be difficulty under the law, and when the House came to discriminate in legislating anew on the subject, they must do it nicely, and will do it with difficulty. In regard to the suspension of proceedings under a part of the law, the President supposed he had the power, and he had exercised it. Mr. J. took this occasion to observe that the character of the President had been mistaken and undervalued before his Administration commenced. He was a man decisive in his sentiments; and, when he saw his way, fearless of consequences, took upon himself a responsibility at which most men would stand appalled. This, at the close of his Administration, all would now acknowledge. That man, then, who never failed in his duty, had taken hold of but one section of the act. The inconveniences of the suspension of the whole law would be very great, compelling the claimants to go to expenses, &c., and the construction was now sufficiently rigid. From every mounted man whose horse was lost, the Commissioner deducted forty cents per day (allowed for the use of the horse) from the amount at which his lost horse is valued; and other cases Mr. J. had presented, which he thought within the spirit of the law, but which the Commissioner had rejected. Would the House, then, come forward and by resolution of one branch of the Legislature suspend a law, especially when he believed that the opposition to the law arose, with some allowance for honest difference of opinion as to the decisions, from the original opposition to the law? Mr. J. hoped that the Chairman of the Committee of Claims, a man of business and a discreet man, would, during the session, report a bill so to define the duties of the Commissioner as to put them in a situation beyond doubt or cavil. Mr. WEBSTER, of New Hampshire, said that it appeared, from the course of debate, that the objections to the resolution before the House were of a twofold character: the first relating to the necessity of interference; the second to the form which the proposed interference, if made, ought to take. It was not, perhaps, easy to ascertain whether it was the judgment of the House, that there was an error in the law or in the administration of the law, or, it may be, in both. So far as regarded error in the law, there was no remedy but to repeal or amend it. If in the execution of the law error was apparent, he concluded that the Executive would exercise his Constitutional authority in the case. The subject was already referred to two committees in this House, and, if the House were to act further on the subject, the proper course would be to amend the resolution, so as to make it declare that it was expedient to suspend the law, &c., and thereon found a bill in regular form for that purpose. Mr. W. was wholly opposed to the interference of this House, singly and separately, on this occasion. If they acted on it at all, it ought to be by law. He did not know that, by passing the resolution as it stood, they would violate their duty, but they would act nugatorily. If the President had the power to suspend the law, the interposition of this House was not necessary; if he had not the power, this resolution would not give it to him. The other branch of the Legislature must be consulted to give efficacy to the resolution. Mr. W. then moved to amend the resolution to read: "That it is expedient to suspend all further proceedings under the act, entitled an act to authorize the payment for property lost, captured, or destroyed by the enemy, while in the military service of the United States, and for other purposes; and that the Committee of Claims be instructed to bring in a bill for that object." Mr. FORSYTH objected to this amendment as tending to produce delay. The subject was indeed as fully before the Committee of Claims now, as it could be by any resolution referring it to them. The object of his motion was only to suspend the act promptly, until the committee should have time to act on it. Mr. WEBSTER rejoined, that the amendment would make the resolution imperative on the committee, who could immediately introduce a bill in conformity to it. Mr. PITKIN, of Connecticut, said he had been originally opposed to the law in question, and had voted against it. But in the proposition now before the House, an important principle was involved, whether it was in the power of the House to suspend a law, or request the President to suspend it. Neither this House nor the President has the power to suspend the operations of a law passed by all the branches of the Government. It requires the same power to suspend as to make a law. Mr. P. said he did not know that a joint resolution would not operate as an act; but he denied that this House alone, the President alone, the Senate alone, or any two of them, had the power to suspend the operation of a law. He was opposed, he repeated, to the appointment of a Commissioner to decide these claims, believing they ought to be managed by the Heads of Departments, who were a little more responsible for their conduct than a Commissioner. But, said Mr. P., shall we break through the Constitution, and say we will suspend a law, because it would require time to go through the forms which the Constitution requires? He presumed not. If the Commissioner had acted so improperly as to require the suspension of his functions, the President has power already to suspend or remove the officer. H. OF R. Mr. HULBERT, of Massachusetts, said, that he had voted in favor of this law at the last session. He regretted that he had done so, because he believed it had not been executed as it ought to have been. It had been said that the House had no information sufficiently authoritative to declare, that the Commissioner, in his decisions, had proceeded improperly. But, he said, had not the man in the highest office in the Union, charged with the supervision of the law, given the House information that, in his opinion, the law was so wrongly construed, that he thought it necessary to suspend the execution of it? If there was not conclusive evidence of error by the Commissioner, there was sufficient to satisfy the House that wrong had been done. It had been said that the President cannot suspend the execution of the law. In that, Mr. H. said, he agreed; but if gentlemen looked at the law, they would find it not of an ordinary kind. It was considered too great a power to give to any man to make these decisions, unless under the control of the Executive of the Union-the power of deciding away millions of millions of moneyand the power was there subjected to such rules and regulations as shall be prescribed by the President. As the President has the power to make new rules whenever he believes the rules first established to be ineffectual, has he not of course authority to say to the Commissioner at any time: stop your decisions; I wish to make a new rule of decision, since I find those which I first established are not sufficient to keep you in a straight course? Nothing certainly could be more plain than the authority of the President to do this. It was certain that erroneous decisions had been made, and that millions of the pub. lic money might be thrown away if the proceeding was not corrected. Mr. WRIGHT, of Maryland, referring to the President's Message on this subject, and quoting its contents, said, that he was in favor of a latitude of construction of the law, and of remuneration for losses. If every individual in the United States were paid for losses during the war, it would be a perfectly just principle, which would prevent one or two sections of the country from exclusively having their property sacrificed on the altar of the public good. The President, he said, had a Constitutional right to see that the laws were faithfully executed, and no doubt he would exercise it when necessary in other cases, as he had already done in one. The establish. ment of the office of Commissioner of Claims was intended to obviate the expense and vexation of examining every little case separately before this numerous tribunal. Of the correctness of the decisions which had been made, Mr. W. said he was not prepared to decide, until he heard the evidence; but sure he was that the President had the right to suspend those decisions, which he had exercised with delicacy, and had spoken of its exercise with deference to the opinions of the Commissioner. Now, instead of entering into a discussion of the true construction of the law, it would certainly be proper to await the |