is a vast benefit to the public, because the officers then know, that, unless they have conducted themselves properly, they will be removed by the people. He thought the gentleman from Northampton had gone a little too far, in his disparagement of his fellow citizens, when he went on to say, that there were many men incompetent to spell the most common words in the English language, who were appointed to office. It goes out from this Convention, as the opinion of gentlemen here, that men are in competent to fill offices, because they have not had a liberal education; because they have not come through a college. This was not the senti ment, which pervaded the public mind. Gentlemen should recollect the anecdote, related of Col. Tarleton. It happened during the revolutionary war, that Col. Washington, in a contest with Col. Tarleton, cut off two of the fingers of the latter officer. Sometime afterwards, in company with some ladies, Col. Tarleton was speaking very disparagingly, of Col. Washington, and among other things, said he understood him to be a very illiterate fellow, and that he was scarcely able to write his own name. A lady in the company-and the ladies generally support their friends, and the friends of their country, with great firmness-replied, that she was not very certain how that was, but, (looking significantly at the Colonel's fingers) one thing she was well apprized of, that he knew very well, how to make his mark. Now, we all know, that there are many amiable, upright, and faithful men, in the country, who are not more than able to make their marks. He did not hold the doctrine, that none, but liberally educated men, should hold office. Liberally educated men were very valuable in their place, and men who are not so well educated, are just as valuable in their place, and they ought all to be treated kindly, and spoken of kindly, and he should be sorry to see the day, when one class should be held up to the admiration, and the other to the ridicule of the world. From the rapid march of improvement and education, in this Commonwealth, it is not likely we shall have many men, within our borders, incompetent to fill any of these offices, and he could see no necessity for the proposed test of the gentleman from Northampton. But if an office was worth enough to authorize a man to employ a person to perform the labor of that office, he would not prevent a worthy man from holding it, who might not himself be able, at first, to do the duties of the office. He was glad the gentleman from Montgomery had accepted the amendment of the gentleman from Adams, because it had put it in a shape, that other amendments could be offere to it. If this amendment was to prevail, he would vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Susquehanna, for the purpose of showing that he was not in favor of long terms of office, and to show the officers, that they must be subjected to the scrutiny of the people, at limited periods. Mr. SERGEANT (President) said, that, under the supposition that there were so many more members in this convention, who had given their particular attention to this subject, and were better able than himself to present the question to the consideration of the committee in all its bearings, he had been disposed not to address the committee. But, after listening with great attention to all that had been said, he found himself in a very great difficulty, as to how he should vote, and what he should vote for, and he should endeavor to explain this difficulty in a very few words. It ourselves individually? He apprehended it was not. He was then op posed to any restriction upon the people, and opposed to compelling them to turn out officers with whom they might be well satisfied. We have been told by the gentleman from Susquehanna, (Mr. READ) that certain reforms lie nearest the hearts of the people, and certain other reforms lie next nearest, and others lay somewhat further off. Now, we have heard so much of the will of the people, from various gentlemen on this floor, that he was at a loss to determine what was the will of the people; but, he believed, that the people desired that their public officers should perform their duties with fidelity, and they expect from us that system which is best calculated to accomplish this important and desirable object.This he took it, was all that the people expected or desired of us. Mr. BANKS had no doubt, that the people, all of them, no matter of what politics they might be, desired that those persons, who might have offices bestowed upon them, either by appointment, or by their votes, should be willing and able to discharge the duties of those offices, with ability and fidelity; but, he was very sure, that the gentleman from the city of Philadelphia, (Mr. BIDDLE) must have discovered, in his experience, that office never gave either mind or manners to any man. You cannot make a man either wise or prudent, by confering office upon him. You cannot make a man either a scholar or a gentleman, by confering office upon him. Worth makes the man, and not the offices which are confered upon him. Then, when you find upon trial, that the man, upon whom you have confered office, will not answer your purpose, will you not in three years, if you cannot sooner, dispense with his services. Will you not claim the power of superseding him, by a more comepetent man, whenever his services may become of little, or no value. Then in relation to the advantages of office. If the salary of the office was a sufficient object, to make it desirable, one man should not have it all the time, and derive all the benefits from it. And on the other hand, if the salary was not sufficient to support a man, you should not compel him to hold on to it. This, however, you cannot do, because he can resign, and retire from the office. If the profits and einoluments of the office, are abundantly sufficient, in the course of six years, to allow him to lay up something, would it not be well, that others should enjoy this privilege, equally with himself. We have already agreed, in commitee of the whole, that the Governor of the Commonwealth, shall be disposed of by limitation. By the old Constitution, he was limited to nine years out of twelve, and we now propose to limit him to six years. Then they will only be carrying out this principle, by going for the proposition of the gentleman from Susquehanna. If an office is worth having, let a capable man hold it for six years. but after that let him retire, and let some other person, equally as capable, take it. The gentleman from Northampton, (Mr. PORTER) had urged upon the commitee, the propriety of having well qualified officers, and had proposed a test to ascertain their qualifications. Mr. B. knew it was an advantage to the community, that all officers should be well qualified to perform their duties; but it was also an advantage to the public, to have officers, no matter how able they might be to perform their duties, know that once in every term of three years, they would have to come within is a vast benefit to the public, because the officers then know, that, unless they have conducted themselves properly, they will be removed by the people. He thought the gentleman from Northampton had gone a little too far, in his disparagement of his fellow citizens, when he went on to say, that there were many men incompetent to spell the most common words in the English language, who were appointed to office. It goes out from this Convention, as the opinion of gentlemen here, that men are in competent to fill offices, because they have not had a liberal education; because they have not come through a college. This was not the senti ment, which pervaded the public mind. Gentlemen should recollect the anecdote, related of Col. Tarleton. It happened during the revolutionary war, that Col. Washington, in a contest with Col. Tarleton, cut off two of the fingers of the latter officer. Sometime afterwards, in company with some ladies, Col. Tarleton was speaking very disparagingly, of Col. Washington, and among other things, said he understood him to be a very illiterate fellow, and that he was scarcely able to write his own name. A lady in the company-and the ladies generally support their friends, and the friends of their country, with great firmness-replied, that she was not very certain how that was, but, (looking significantly at the Colonel's fingers) one thing she was well apprized of, that he knew very well, how to make his mark. Now, we all know, that there are many amiable, upright, and faithful men, in the country, who are not more than able to make their marks. He did not hold the doctrine, that none, but liberally educated men, should hold office. Liberally educated men were very valuable in their place, and men who are not so well educated, are just as valuable in their place, and they ought all to be treated kindly, and spoken of kindly, and he should be sorry to see the day, when one class should be held up to the admiration, and the other to the ridicule of the world. From the rapid march of improvement and education, in this Commonwealth, it is not likely we shall have many men, within our borders, incompetent to fill any of these offices, and he could see no necessity for the proposed test of the gentleman from Northampton. But if an office was worth enough to authorize a man to employ a person to perform the labor of that office, he would not prevent a worthy man from holding it, who might not himself be able, at first, to do the duties of the office. He was glad the gentleman from Montgomery had accepted the amendment of the gentleman from Adams, because it had put it in a shape, that other amendments could be offere to it. If this amendment was to prevail, he would vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Susquehanna, for the purpose of showing that he was not in favor of long terms of office, and to show the officers, that they must be subjected to the scrutiny of the people, at limited periods. 1 Mr. SERGEANT (President) said, that, under the supposition that there were so many more members in this convention, who had given their par ticular attention to this subject, and were better able than himself to present the question to the consideration of the committee in all its bearings, he had been disposed not to address the committee. But, after listening with great attention to all that had been said, he found himself in a very great difficulty, as to how he should vote, and what he should vote for, and he should endeavor to explain this difficulty in a very few words. It principle, to determine the Convention as to what it should do in this matter. He was not satisfied with either of the grounds which had been taken here. He did not take into account at all what seemed to be a thing. conceded, that there is a very great dissatisfaction prevailing, with the manner in which the appointing power has heretofore been executed. He was no judge of that, as he had had nothing to do with it, but proceeding upon general principles, which he took to be right, he did not think there was any just cause of dissatisfaction, though he would not pretend to say how much in fact there had been. When he said he was not satisfied with the grounds taken, he refered to what is called the elective principle, the power of the people, rotation in office, and the limitation of the time of holding office; so that, after one man has made money enough for the support of himself and family, another might have a chance. If that was the grounds on which appointments to office were to be made, we have but one thing to do, and that is to increase the salaries, so that a man, in six years, may accumulate enough to support himself and family after he is left out of office. He was not satisfied with these grounds, and he wished to turn the attention of the committee, for a moment, to the prin ciple of rotation in office. What are its real principles? When he said this, he did not wish it to be supposed for a moment, that he was giving his opinion as better than that of any other person. It was by compari son of opinions that results are to be arrived at. Let every member of the convention give his opinion, and that which is right we can adopt, and be governed by it, and, if we are satisfied it is correct, we can carry it out. He would suppose, as satisfactory to himself, that this general principle of election is the real will of the people; that, in this respect, a certain kind of changes must be made. We are told that the will of the people is, that their officers should be selected by them, and that they should be limited to two terms, so as to constitute what is called rotation in office. His own opinion was, that the will of the people must be obeyed, whenever it is clearly ascertained, according to the principles of gov ernment. It not only asks for obedience, but it compels obedience, and you cannot resist it. He did not know what the will of the people might be, but he thought he knew what the will of the people ultimately would be. He believed the will of the people to be, that that which is right should be done, and it is our business, by comparing opinions together, and discussing matters, and throwing those discussions before the people, so as to give them all the information in our power, and they will then judge, finally as to them shall seem best. That is Sir, there is another course, opposed to this, and that is, to determine one's will first, or to determine the course to be taken, and then to shape one's reason and argument according to such determination. common in individuals-it may take place in communities. It is the most natural thing in the world, that this should take place. The reason, in that case, instead of leading to decision, is made to follow and subserve it. There are a great many men in every republican community, who are in pursuit of popularity. That, is their whole end, and to promote it, all means are applied. When I say this, I am not attributing to them, necessarily, any thing wrong, for the love of popularity is a natural one. It is a laudable one. It means nothing more, than a desire to have the esteem And, if it does not go beyond that, then it is only a spring of action-a necessary spring of action, in a republic like ours. You cannot dispense with it. It is idle to talk otherwise. As to the famous saying of Lord Mansfield, that he desired that popularity, which follows, and not that which is run after. It is a fine sparkling antithesis, but when you come to analyze it, you discover there is very little in it but the antithesi. Every man professes to pursue a right course, according to the dictates of his conscience, and because he believes it will raise him in the esteem of his fellow-men. And, that is the just reward of good conduct. As to the matter of seeking, or desiring popularity, it is the natural spring of public action, as the appetites, passions, and feelings, are of individual actior. With proper regulation, they are salutary-unduly indulged, they become mischievous and destructive. Without them, and some indulgence of them, the individual could not live-in their excess, they will destroy him. A man cannot live without eating, and yet he may kill himself by eating too much. And so it it is with this thing, called popularity-it is the spring of action in a republic. Indeed, all that, it should be; controlled by a sense of duty, a public man should live for his country, and he will be sure to keep this appetite within its proper limits. Whoever will endeavor so to form his mind, and habits, that all his faculties shall be obedient to reason, and patriotism, will be able to attain the just means between submission to the vis inertia on the one side, and irregular ambition on the other. He will be a good citizen, wherever his lot may be cast. Every man who has popularity, places his value upon it, and sometimes a much higher one than it is worth. To come more immediately to the point in discussion. There are two descriptions of offices, under our Constitution. in their nature totally different: and with respect to which, it would appear to me, in the very outset, they are to be considered with reference to different principles. One class of offices, is clearly political; it relates to the political power of the community, and begins and ends chiefly in the exercise of political power, and therefore affects the political rights of the community, as a community. That is the case with your Legislature, an with the greater part of the duties which belong to your Executive. And, as such offices are political, there is no doubt in the world, that the elective principle is rightly applied to them. But there is another class of offices, which relates entirely to the civil condition, the civil interest, and the civil rights, of individuals, as contra-distinguished froin political ones. Whether the elective principle does, or does not apply, in this latter case, depends upon other matters, which, I will consider presently. But, I mean to say, at present, that it does not, necessarily, apply to them, nor very obviously, nor naturally. Of what description, then, are the offices, respecting which we are now legisla ting-making a fundamentel law? Without exception, as far as I understand the subject before us, those offices are not, in any sense, political of fices. I take for example, the recorder of deeds. What is my business in giving this office? Why, I want to have the evidence of my property securely rec rded, so that it may remain there, for myself, and my children, or those to whom I choose to leave it. So of the register of wills: is it not the same with respect to him? Is it not the same with regard to the clerks of the courts? They have no portion of political power commited to them, but are charged with the care of personal and civil rights, |