tain whether he said no or not. Witman would still insist to stand there; I got a little' angry, said I, you see all this disturbance is because you are so near, the people want you away; he would not go away; the people was always ballooing to try to get him away; then Hoeckley took the ink stand away from him, and he had to go back; and he sit afterwards back at the table. I heard nothing after that.

Q. Did you observe any person have a difference with him when he stood by the pillar?

A. No sir, but all seemed a little shocked when that man was that way, There was a little riot there, I do not know what it

was.

Q. Did you observe any endeavor to prevent the English party from giving in their votes?

A. No sir.

Q. Was it more than usually noisy?

A. Yes sir, rather more noisy than it used to be in former times, in these two instances.

Q. Do you recollect when first this difference of opinion arose to any height in the congregation? Have not the elections becn more noisy since these disputes arose between the parties than they used to be previously to them?

A. There never was no such noise before the dispute began.
Q. Did you attend the counting the votes ?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What was the majority?

A. I knew at that time, but I do not recollect; there was twoto one.

Q. Have you had any conversation with any of the other party? A. I had some conversation with some about the English preaching; Geyer and Witman came to my house and asked what I thought of it; I told them I did not think any harm of it, but stated, the German ought to be still preserved. I would keep myself on the neutral side; I had nothing to give away, but if the members of the congregation had no objection, I had none, if it could be done in a christian like manner. I was told there were tickets sent, and they made a distinction; they sent to some and not to others; I had not received any. Witman said," as to that, that he would give me one; I would not agree to give any thing away from the church. Mr. Steiff met me, he had a resolution in his hand, he showed me it, I did not read it all; I think it was to carry away some of the Germans against some rules tions of the German. I thought rather hard of it after regula afterwards; I beard the same debate on the resolution in the school house; at this very meeting when the invitation was. This was a short time after I saw Steiff; one evening I stopt in there, and stood against the wall and heard the debate; I had not heard the resolution, I came too late; I thought it rather hard the Germans should be treated this way. Dr. Leib, said, "he would not go that way work," he said," he would wish to give the hand, not the foot.

Q. Did Long ever call upon you about this dispute?

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A. One day he called upon me; he asked me about this noise, whether I did not think it would be settled. I told him yes, I would be for the making up, of course; says he, "we would be for making up, if it could be done ;" I believe I made mention, do you want the church or any thing; no," he said, we do not want any thing;" why, says I, then it can be made up. I could not give much advice, I was sued myself and I did not like to say much. He said, "people did not like to say much" why said I, it is no wonder; if people say any thing, there is harm made of it, they are bound over, &c.

Q. When was this?

I

A. About two or three days before this trial.

Q. Had you not a conversation at the house of Eberle ?

A. Yes, I recollect stopping there one day; Long came there; something was said about making up; Eberle said, "they had an advice from the ministers and synod, they should make it up, it would be the best way to do, if it could be settled;" well said I, the best way is, you have taken it to court, you can take it away again, you can take the suits out of court. This was Charles Eberle. It was a few days since; after the conversation with Long. Q. You understood, that they were going to take it out of court?

A. Yes sir, they said if they took one out, they ought to take all out; because I was sued too, and I did not want to go to court. Long mentioned if we would give him a church, it would sooner make it up.

Q. Sooner?

A. He did not say sooner; I made no reply on it.

Q. Did Long say this after Eberle said, they had the advice of the ministers?

A. I think, afterwards, I think I made mention we had no church to give.

Q. Do you recollect the time, Mannhardt gave his vote?

;

A. Yes sir, I saw no more than him; I recollect he came in one said, "there is Mannhardt, give him a little room, I recollect that very well. I did not see him the whole day before nor afterwards.

Q. After the dispute and scuffle had ended, did the English party generally come and give their votes to you as judges 2

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did Witman vote?

A. I did not see him vote; I cannot tell.

Cross examined.

How did you know the tickets apart?

A. I cannot say that, sir. The English and Germans came and voted.

Q. Could you know them apart?

1. I believe I could, the Germans were larger.

Q. Do you not recollect, the eagles were on the German ?

A. Yes sir; the eagle was not always shown on the outside. Q. Was there any other way that you know the English votes, but that the Germans were larger?

A. Some of the English were large too; some was large and some small on both sides; I could not tell always.

1

Q. Had you a list of the voters to see if the voters was entitled ? A. No sir,

Q. When any person came to vote, did you make enquiry, if he was a pew holder, if he was a member and go through the whole questions?

A. To the best of my knowledge, I did what was my duty to do; I took the votes and enquired if they were members, and into the qualifications they had.

Q. Do you know whether Witman put a good number of questions to the voters when they came up?

A. I believe he did, and he was then set back and could not do it. Q. Did you see Witman write any thing, make memorandums, or had he any paper in his hand?

A. Yes sir, I did not see what he wrote.

Q. Had you any mode of telling whether those persons who came up were entitled to vote, except their own assertions ? A. No sir.

Juror. Has it always been a custom to have a list of those who were qualified?

A. I have not been an inspector before, but it is not in my recollection that it was the custom to have a list.

Q. Is the congregation very large? Do they fill the church very full?

A. I cannot tell that; sometimes the churches are very full, and sometimes they are not.

Q. Do you not know, you received a number of illegal votes that day?

A. No sir, I do not. There might have been some, but not to my knowledge; we sent several off.

Q. Did you not send away some of the members of Meyer's church when they came there to vote?

A. It is likely, I do not recollect.

Q. Did you not afterwards receive some, from members of Meyers's church?

A. I believe, if I did, I had a reason for it; I did not care what side they were; I was not of any side, then, much.

YEATES, JUDGE. Were there any of the members who had left the church and gone to Meyers's, still had pews in Zion church ? A. Yes sir, some had, some had not.

Q. What standard had you fixed, by which you determined whether persons were qualified or not?

A. By the common rules of the church and charter, which has always been the practice. I asked the voter if he had taken the sacrament in Zion church, and whether he had contributed to the church; if he said, yes, his vote was taken; I took his word for it,

unless some members owed twenty or thirty years pew money; I did not consider them members, of course. These were all the questions I put that I recollect. About eight or nine years ago, there was an opinion brought in by Mr. Graeff, and the high judge or the attorney general said, they should elect the inspectors by the congregation; but at the same time, they did not mind it, they went on; Mr. Woelper was president; he appointed the inspectors and afterwards it was always done so. When Mr. Muhlenberg was president, I stood by him and saw him appoint the inspectors; it was before this congregation separated.

Q. When you spoke of more suits than one, what did

mean?

you

A. I meant that I was sued myself, Mr. Witman sued me. I am always for peace; I saw the stove go over; I cannot tell who knocked it over; I helieve it was after Wagner got in; it was in the scuffle when Wagner was over; thallooed that they should out with the fire, and they did put it out, and where I stood, it was all water, it was so cold, I called for something to drink; they brought me water, I could not drink it, it was so cold; they asked me if I wanted beer, I told them no; they asked me if I wanted wine, I told them no; they brought wine, I drank some, there was some in the glass, I poured it out and gave to Mr. Kauffman, he is an old man, and came there shivering to vote, and I told him, here is some wine; that was all I gave.

Q. Did you not generally know the people who came up, and what were their qualifications ?

A. Yes sir.

MR. J. INGERSOLL, (exhibiting to the witness a book)-state, whether that is not the description of the church warden's duties, rights and obligations ?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Was Witman a warden of the church?

A. Yes, he is a warden now.

Q. Did he act as warden before the election?

A. Yes sir; after the election he did not do his duty, for I had to do a good deal of it.

JOHN K. HELMUTH, sworn.-One of the German Lutheran congregation.

Q. Have you had any conversation with John Long, previous to this court, relative to this dispute?

A. I had a conversation with him about two or three weeks ago, 'he seemed to express a desire that the dispute should be settled, and wished that my father should use his influence to have it set-tled, if possible. He did not exactly state the terms, he said, "that some of the leading men of each party should meet together with a view of having it settled; he did not exactly state what the cause of the difference was.

Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Mannhardt?

A. Yes sir, I have known him perhaps ten or twelve years.
Q. Is he a man of good character and conduct?

1

A. Yes sir, he came from Germany with recommendations from a very respectable house in Altona, who, I believe, were his relations.

YEATES, JUDGE. Is he a warm, ardent man in his manner?
A. I believe he is.

Cross examined.

Q. Is he in the habit of visiting at your father's house?
A. I believe he goes there occasionally.

Q. Was there not a time when he was excluded ?

A. I never heard of it..

Q. Is the congregation in a very flourishing state, now ?

A. There is certainly a falling off in some respects; it is the difference in party.

Q. Is not the congregation more flourishing than it was last year ?

A. I do not interfere much in the church affairs, I believe it is quite as prosperous as it was twelve months ago. Adjourned....

TUESDAY, 16TH JULY, 4 O'CLOCK, P. M. HENRY SCHRAEDER, sworn.-Has been at the meeting of the German society, does not belong to it.

Q: Did you attend any of their meetings previous to the elec

tion ?

A. Yes sir, I was at their last meeting.

Q. How did the German party go on that evening; were they orderly ?

A. Yes sir, there was nothing I saw out of the way. I heard Mannhardt say, they should be peaceable, quiet, not have any fighting or any disturbance. I was at that meeting until they broke up and went from there home.

Q. Were you at another?

A. I was several times there; sometimes I staid till the meeting was over; sometimes I went away, I was at one of the English' party's meeting in Fourth street; after the meeting in Cherry street was out, I went over there with some of them, and staid a little while there and went home; I could not say any thing I understood there, I did not see any thing particular. I was at the election, was not there from the first beginning; when I came there I saw the stove lying down; some part out of doors and some in the room.

Q. What time of day was that?

A. A little past nine; perhaps half past nine: they were just beginning to give in the votes; after I was there awhile, I was standing back on the bench looking at them, there was one gentleman standing up on the inside where they were giving in votes, he had a book in his hand taking down the names. I heard some people call out, he should come out, but he did not mind; he continued there; some cried out, "take the book from him," some went and took the book from him; after they took the book from him, the people who were standing round the table, told him to set down at the table with the rest that the people might have a chance