ability to protect minorities under section 1981 for intentional infliction of discrimination, to allow them compensatory damages, to allow them punitive damages, and even under the, I guess it is, the Santa Fe case-and I would have to admit my surprise when the U.S. Supreme Court decided it-but the U.S. Supreme Court even held that white males indeed were protected under the provisions of section 1981, which seems to me to say that only women and in this case primarily white women, would not be protected because they would not be included under the terms of section 1981.

And to the extent we have those kind of inequities, I think it is appropriate that we try to eliminate them to the extent that that is possible.

Senator SIMON. If I may ask one further question here that, again, is not part of the pending bill but is very much related to it. I have introduced, and Senator Metzenbaum and others have cosponsored, a bill that would reverse the Richmond case. This bill is before the Governmental Affairs Committee rather than this committee.

Any comments that either of you have on the need for reversing the Richmond case?

Ms. NORTON. I haven't seen the legislation, Senator Simon, but I am very pleased to hear that you have introduced a bill.

I must say, as someone who has been asked by various States and localities for advice on the Croson results and what should be done, that this is an area that is now in rank confusion, where States and localities are spending money on procedures that they think may be compelled by the U.S. Supreme Court but which they have little faith in.

The States and cities have been put in the position of having to reconstruct, as it were, a history of discrimination in contracting over more than 100 years. The burden is quite intolerable. The concern is very great.

This is, after all, money, State money that is being used when contracts are being let. An entrepreneurial class of blacks in particular, later of Hispanics and women, began to develop after the set-aside notion began to take hold in the States and cities. Now it has been virtually yanked away by a U.S. Supreme Court decision that makes it very doubtful that many States and localities can comply if we are to understand even what compliance is.

So I very much welcome Federal authority that will clarify what the standards are when States and localities seek to let contracts in such a way as to make up for past discrimination against minorities and women.

Senator SIMON. If I could just add my observation, it is that some States and localities that were not very eager to do anything in the first place now have an excuse for not doing anything.

Mr. Brown, any comments?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, that's quite true, Senator. As a matter of fact, in Philadelphia we have quite a dilemma trying to decide just exactly what the impact of the Croson decision is going to be. And even in those areas where there has been a specific finding of discrimination against minorities and women in the past in the allowing and letting of various contracts, in one of our situations it was held that even those persons were not entitled to be considered.

I must admit that I share Eleanor's concern, and I must admit that I am really just not familiar enough with the proposed bill to be more helpful to the committee in trying to give some answers to obviously very, very difficult questions.

Senator SIMON. I thank you both.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator METZENBAUM. Thank you.

I thank both of you very much not only for your testimony today but for your long record of service in this area. We appreciate it and look forward to continuing to work with you.

Mr. BROWN. Thank you very much.

Ms. NORTON. Thank you, Senators.

Senator METZENBAUM. Our next witness is Ms. Patricia Swanson of Ingleside, IL. I must say that we are most grateful to Ms. Swanson who traveled here today to share with us some very painful experiences she had. The chair is very interested in hearing her statement, but wants her to know that the chair has some constraints of time and if I have to leave it is not from a lack of interest, it is from a lack of time. Senator Simon will continue to preside afterward.

But, Ms. Swanson, please proceed.

STATEMENT OF PATRICIA G. SWANSON, INGLESIDE, IL

Ms. SWANSON. My name is Patricia Swanson. I am from Ingleside, IL, and I would like to thank you for inviting me to testify today.

Senator METZENBAUM. Could you pull the mike a little closer, please? Thank you.

Ms. SWANSON. I worked for over a year as an assistant finance manager for Elmhurst Chrysler-Plymouth, and throughout that time I was sexually harassed by my boss, Roger Meacham.

I took him to court for it, and I proved that he had harassed me. In spite of that I got nothing from the court-and now I even have to pay Roger Meacham's court costs.

I am here today to tell you about what happened. I started work at Elmhurst Chrysler-Plymouth on November 6, 1983. My husband had just opened a used-car business and we needed my salary to live on. Shortly after that the harassment started.

Roger Meacham, my boss and part-owner of the dealership, would sneak up behind me and try to unhook my bra. This happened at least two or three times a week. I sometimes had to scoot down in my chair to keep him from succeeding, and even then he would reach down the chair and keep trying.

Roger said he couldn't wait for the Christmas party because it was a ritual for him to go around and feel all the women's breasts. He said as boss he was allowed to do that.

I told him I would not allow it to be done to me. From that day until the Christmas party, Roger made several comments about his ritual. I stayed in my office most of the day of the party, as I did not want to participate in his ritual.

At another gathering in the main office, when salesmen, office girls, and mechanics were all present, Roger started talking about his vasectomy. He said his doctor told him he had to have sex ten

times before he was safe. He turned to me and said, "I have two to go. Would you like to help clean out my tubes?"

I went back to my office close to tears. I thought about just walking out that time, but I needed the money. I was the sole support of my family at that time.

On several occasions Roger would run up behind me in the hallway and run his hand under my skirt and grab me between my legs and my thigh. One time I was carrying a cup of hot coffee when he did this, and I spilled it down the front of me. He told me to take my clothes off right there and he would have them cleaned. I went to the ladies room to clean up in private, and he followed me in. As I was wiping the coffee off my blouse, he tried to take the paper towel out of my hands and wipe off my chest himself. He didn't leave until I started to cry.

One very hot day in 1984 he said in front of two of the girls from the office and one of the salesmen that if he had his way, all the females would work topless. He then turned to me and said that I would be the first and he would personally remove my blouse.

One of the girls said, "If the girls have to go topless, then shouldn't the men have to remove their pants?" Roger said, "That's okay with me," and ran over next to me at my desk and dropped his pants to the floor. I got upset and put my head in my hands and said, "Please put your pants on and get out of the office." I told him that I had a customer coming in and I didn't appreciate his actions.

I looked out the door and saw the salesman coming down the hall with the customer. When Roger saw them, he pulled his pants up and was just buckling them when the customer walked into my office. I was upset most of the day, and I had a difficult time taking care of the customers that day.

Another hot summer day during 1984 I was coming back from lunch and I had removed my jacket because of the heat. I always wore a blazer or a business suit at work. As I entered the showroom, Roger was on the floor, along with several of the salesmen and some customers.

He pointed at me and he said, "From the looks of Pat's nipples, it's either cold out or she's horny, and we know it's not cold out.' One of the salesmen said, "Roger, I can't believe you'd talk to her like that." I was once again humiliated and considered just quitting then and there, but I knew that I couldn't afford to do that, literally.

One day Roger was going out after work and his wife brought a change of clothes for him. He suddenly appeared at my office door with only a towel around. He said, "Do you dare me to take this towel off?" I told him not to do it and to leave me alone. He came over next to me, and I put my head down and started to turn away. The next thing I knew, the towel was on my desk. He finally took the towel back and left the office.

On several occasions Roger called me in to his office or Ron Keller, the other manager's office, when other men were present. They were salesmen, customer friends of his, or wholesalers. When I entered, he would point at me and say to the other men present, "Have you ever seen such big boobs? Wouldn't you love to grab them?"

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I never knew who these men were. My husband was in the automobile business too. He still is. And they might have known him. I was humiliated and worried that my husband might be as well.

One time Roger threw paper clips down the front of my blouse and then attempted to retrieve them in front of the other cowork

ers.

Other times he would say to me, "Let's go down to the motel with the mirrors and screw around." He also asked me to come into his office and "screw around." He told me that the sofa in his office was actually a hide-a-bed and he wanted to try it out with

me.

All this harassment had a strong effect on me. I dreaded seeing Roger in the morning. I knew he would say something to me every day. On a number of occasions he would make me cry. I would always go into the washroom to do it so that he wouldn't see me. I was always edgy, and I had trouble concentrating. I was always afraid of running into Roger. One of the other girls would often bring me coffee so that I wouldn't have to take a chance of running into him at the coffee machine. I felt like I was a prisoner in my own office.

It also affected me physically. Sometimes the harassment would give me migraines. After one particularly bad incident, my migraine was so bad that I almost passed out. One of the salesmen called my husband to take me home from work. I was too embarrassed to tell my husband what was going on. I knew he would want me to quit. But we really needed the money I was making. I also have angina now, and the doctor says it's from stress. And I can't prove that it is all from Roger Meacham, but I would say that a good majority of it is. I don't go anywhere without my nitro pills.

In December of 1984 Roger fired me. In my opinion, my dismissal was due to my objections to the constant sexual harassment created by Roger Meacham. Other people at the office had often told me what a good job I was doing. I sued Elmhurst Chrysler-Plymouth in Federal Court for sexual harassment.

Both the trial judge and the circuit court believed that I had been sexually harassed, but they also believed Roger's testimony that he had fired me for other reasons. Because of this, I did not get anything at all for the abuse I suffered.

I think that the final blow was even though I had proven to the court that Roger had sexually harassed me and even though he admitted it under oath, I am now required to pay his court costs.

I have three daughters and three daughters-in-law, all of them raising families. Most of them work outside of the home. I also have 15 grandchildren, ten of them girls. I hate to think of them having to put up with this kind of treatment when they are all ready to seek a career. I hope they will not be subjected to the type of harassment I was subjected to.

Thank you.

Senator METZENBAUM. Thank you very much. That is a very powerful statement. I am only sorry there are not more members of this committee who were here to hear it. I hope that they will have the chance to read your testimony. It is certainly very persuasive and very convincing. I thank you.

I am going to excuse myself and turn the hearing over to Senator Simon, but I do want you to know how much I appreciate the difficult strain we have put you under in coming before us to testify. But we think your testimony is very, very helpful to us. Thank

Senator SIMON [presiding.] I just want to add my commendation, too, Ms. Swanson. Frankly, it takes a lot of courage for you to come in here. It also takes a lot of courage to go into court as you did. I guess I would address a question to the staff here, if anyone knows, does this bill assist in her kind of situation?

Yes, if you can identify yourself for the record here.

Mr. CACOZZA. I am Albert Cacozza, counsel to the committee. This bill will allow people in Ms. Swanson's position to seek remedies in the future. When the employee proves that she was sexually harassed, as in this case, she will be entitled to a remedy even though there was another independent, lawful reason for the adverse employment action.

Senator SIMON. OK.

One of the other things that is obviously needed is a support group for people in your situation. You know you are really all by your lonesome out there in this kind of a situation. Right?

Ms. SWANSON. Yes, I am.

Senator SIMON. And so it is not simply a change in the law that I hope we get, but how do we give a little more encouragement to people who are harassed as you have been?

Ms. SWANSON. Well, I think there has to be a way of letting people know that there is something out there they can do. I had a terrible time finding an attorney to take the case. Nobody wanted to touch it.

I finally was very fortunate to find a woman, Elizabeth Hubbard, in Chicago, that did take the case and knew what to do. I wasn't sure what to do. I had gone to the EEOC and they suggested that I get an attorney. And it took me, I would say, 4 or 5 months before I found one who was willing to take it.

But I think the message has to go out to management that they can't get away with it. It is like they are not afraid of title VII. There is nothing there to hurt them. It doesn't cost them anything. So they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

If someone says, "Well, there's a law against that." So what? It didn't cost him anything-it cost me. It not only cost me the humiliation and the time, it cost me money for my attorney and my husband backed me through this whole thing. It took time out of his business to come to court. Money that we couldn't really afford.

And now I have a bill waiting at home for me to pay for Roger Meacham's court costs. And he is very smug about this whole thing. He feels he taught me a lesson.

Senator SIMON. If I may ask how much you are going to be paying for his court costs?

Ms. SWANSON. I believe it's around $1,500.

Senator SIMON. With the status of the present law, without the changes that we are talking about, someone in your situation, working for an insurance company, working anywhere, what would you advise a woman in that situation?