nesses I shall call should prove those words, or any thing like them, it is impossible for you to have a doubt whether they are seditious, or whether the defendant intended to excite sedition by them. Do you know the defendant?-Yes. What time was it when you went?-About seven o'clock. Had Mr. Winterbotham begun his discourse?—Yes. Do you know where his text was?-No. What was he preaching about?—He was then speaking of the riots in Birmingham, where he said there had been a lawless mob; [The serjeant here enumerated the words laid in the several counts of the indictment.] . I would ask whether these words tend to conciliate the people to the government?How it is possible to explain these words away, or persuade the jury that they had not-that the dissenters there were much opthe tendency of exciting the people to sedition pressed, and that they above all others were I know not. If ever the trumpet of sedition much oppressed. was sounded in the pulpit, it was done in this instance. Well, what else did he say?-Did he say any thing about the revolution?-[To this mode of examination an exception was taken by the defendant's counsel, but over-ruled by the judge.]—Yes. What did he say about the revolution ?— Said the Revolution of 1688 he very much approved of,- he called it a glorious Revolu tion;-he said he was very sorry to see the laws so abused, and brought into disuse. What, did he say the laws were abused ?— He said they were not now as they were at the Revolution, and when first instituted. Well, and what else did he say?—He then spoke of the present times-said he approved of the revolution in France very much-and he endeavoured to expose the old despotic government of France;-said he did not doubt but it had opened the eyes of Britons.-He then spoke of the method of tax-gathering in England, and said a tax-gatherer will come into your house, and demand your property out of your pocket, without satisfying you to what purpose the money is to be applied :he said that was not liberty for a Britonevery man had a right in a land of liberty, to know how his money was to be applied.-He then spoke of the expenses of the late armaments said he disapproved of three of them, The defendant said, "You fancy you live under a mild government and good laws, but it is no such thing."-What could these words mean, but that they did not live under a mild government and good laws?-Whether the assertion relative to the House of Commons granting supplies, was founded in ignorance or not, the defendant certainly intended to make the people dissatisfied with the House of Commons. The words laid in the several other counts are of the same nature. And a minister of the gospel, who uttered such a discourse from the pulpit, betrayed his duty with respect to that gospel which he pretended to preach, the doctrines of which breathe nothing but peace; and in opposition to that peace for which he pretended to pray, thereby endeavoured to stir up the minds of his audience to mutiny and rage, and to put them into such a state of rebellion as we have seen in a neighbouring country.-If ever a country had warning of the pernicious effects of sedition and tumult, it is this country; we have had warning by what passed in king Charles's time-we have had warning by what passed in the year 1780, when we knew what it was to have popular disturbances-and we have had warning by what has lately passed and said they were manœuvres for minison the other side of the water. Our constitu- ters to make up their accounts;-said then, tion has made us happier than any other na-how are your streets crowded with poor, your tion upon earth, and if we are not content, poor houses with vagrants, and your gaols we must deservedly fall;--but if we are thank-with thieves-it is all owing to your oppres ful for its blessings, as we ought to be, we should repress those people who endeavour to instil a contrary doctrine into the minds of the public. When offenders of this sort are brought before us, we should without remorse find them guilty.-If the jury should think the defendant guilty of the offence laid to his charge, they will say so without regret. I shall now call the witnesses for the crown, and prove that the defendant spoke these words; and I have no doubt but you, gentlemen of the jury, will find your verdict accordingly. EVIDENCE FOR THE CROWN. On the 5th of November last, were you at sive taxes.-He then said he had often heard people talk what a happy land they lived in, and what a mild government they laboured under; but that it was no such thing;-he was much astonished at their quietness; and added, it is high time you should stand forward to defend your rights.-He then said he was sorry to see justice so abused-said no magistrate or justice had any right to hold his office, unless he obeyed his trust, not even his majesty, if he did not see the laws duly observed, he had no more right to the throne than a Stuart; and he concluded by saying, he hoped we should soon see better times. Cross-examined by Mr. Gibbs. Mr. Winterbotham, I believe, is a baptist? -I believe he is. Are you of that persuasion?-No. Pray as you are not of that persuasion, what led you to go on that evening to this place of worship? I was informed that Mr. Winterbotham was going to preach a political serinon, and for that reason went. That was your reason for going?—Yes. Then you did not go for your instruction?No; I did not know what he was going to say. Pray what are you?-A member of the church of England, and a brush-maker. Were you ever at this meeting before?-mon?-Yes: I thought that text consistent Yes, several times. with what he preached. You don't know the text?-No. Pray did you never hear what the text was? -I heard some words spread about Plymouth as the text, but did not believe them. Did you never tell any one what the text was?-No; the words spread about the text were something about binding kings in chains and nobles in fetters of iron. Why did you not believe that to be the text?-I had a better opinion of Mr. Winterbotham, and thought he knew better than to preach from such a text. Did you make any minutes of what you beard?-Not before I gave information before the mayor. You have done it then since?-Yes, about a month after. How long was it after the sermon was preached, before you went to the mayor in order to give an account of what you heard preached?-It was soon after-I went and gave a verbal account. And is the account you have given now, the same with that you gave before the mayor of Plymouth? As well as I can recollect, I related to the mayor of Plymouth all the circumstances I have given in evidence. The first part of Mr. Winterbotham's sermon which you heard was about the riots at Birmingham-did you look on that as seditious? Mr. Winterbotham introduced his sermon with an account of the riots--when he said the dissenters were oppressed, I did not in particular object to that, but thought it an improper observation. And then he spoke of the revolution. In what manner, pray, did he speak of it?-He spoke of the Revolution in an honourable view, call'd it a glorious Revolution-but said it was deviated from since that time. He said it had been deviated from. Did he say in what instance it had been deviated from?-I understood that he said the laws were abused and brought into disuse. You understood so; are you positive he said so?--Yes, I can swear positively to that. You heard the introduction to the discourse, but you don't know where the text was; did you never inquire of any of the congregation? or did you never hear any person say where the text was?-I never heard what the text was, but I heard people say that the text was not consistent with the sermon. How many persons do you think were present when this sermon was preached?The congregation consisted of about two hundred. And though there were two hundred persons present, you never could find any one that could tell you where the text was?-No; though I inquired of many. I inquired of Mr. Channens, and he told me part of the text was, "I will teach them to thy children in time to come." Did you think that text improper?-No. Did you think it consistent with the ser Do you recollect Mr. Winterbotham's saying any thing about the gunpowder plot in his sermon, or our deliverance from popery? -I don't recollect he said any thing about the gunpowder plot; but he spoke of the Revolution as a crisis when we were delivered from papal power; and he spoke of the principles on which the Revolution was founded, and said something about king William, but I cannot remember what it was. You don't recollect that any thing was said about the gunpowder plot, nor what was said about king Williain; but you recollect very particularly those things you have taken upon you to give in evidence?—I made minutes of what I heard, and which were the same as I have now delivered. Were there no innocent parts in the sermon which you recollect?-There were very little innocent parts in the sermon. Pray how long was Mr. Winterbotbam in preaching this sermon? About three quarters of an hour. And during all this time, you don't recollect any part of the sermon that was innocent? During the whole time, all he preached from beginning to end was very seditious. How far do you think Mr. Winterbotham had proceeded in his sermon when you first went in?--I cannot tell. Was the sermon divided into parts?-Yes, I remember it was divided; but I don't remember any of the divisions, only the last, when he said he should treat of the present times this was all I collected. Then you do not recollect any passage in the sermon that was innocent?-There might have been such, but I cannot recollect them. There has, I believe, been a considerable deal of conversation about this sermon; did you never hear any persons speak of it in a very different light? have you not heard it spoken of as a discourse very well adapted to the occasion for which the day is set apart, and as being very innocent?-Yes; I have often heard persons say so. In giving your evidence, have you given Mr. Winterbotham's own words?—Yes; as nearly as I could. You have told us Mr. Winterbotham said, his majesty, if he did not see the laws duly observed, had no more right to the throne than a Stuart; what did you understand by a Stuart ?--I understood he meant by a Stewart, some officer under the crown;-I considered it in the light of a gentleman's steward. You thought Mr. Winterbotham meant some officer under the crown like a gentleman's steward?--Yes; I took very little notice of it, and did not think much about it. You took but little notice, and paid but little attention then to what was meant?-No; I paid very little attention to what his meaning was about the Stewards. John King sworn.-Examined by Mr. Serjeant Lawrence. Did you go to the meeting in How's-lane, on the 5th of November last?--Yes. Did you see the defendant there?—Yes. Had he begun his sermon ?--Yes. What was he preaching about?-He was speaking of the Revolution in 1688, which he spoke highly of, and called it a glorious Revolution: he next spoke of the revolution of France; spoke highly in favour of it; said he did not doubt but it had opened the eyes of Britons. He then spoke concerning the corruption in electing members of parliament, and the interested views they voted with.Concerning taxes, he said every man in a land of liberty, ought to know how his money was applied; and said, why are your streets crowded with vagrants, your poor houses with poor, and your gaols with thieves?-it is owing to the heavy taxes. What else did he say?-He spoke concerning the late armaments; part, he said, he disapproved of; and added, it is high time to come forward in defence of your rights. Did he say any thing else?-This is all I recollect. Did you make any minutes of what you heard?-No; I took no minutes at the time, but thought the passages improper. Cross-examined by Mr. East. How came you to go there on that evening Paddon (the first witness) told me there was to be a constitutional sermon preached at the Baptist meeting, and we agreed to go there. What time was it?-We were going out to supper; it was before supper time, about seven o'clock. Did you hear the text?—No, I did not hear the text; I was not there at the beginning of the sermon. When did you first speak of the sermon as seditious? I spoke of it to Paddon after we went from meeting, at the house where we supped, and very much disapproved of it, and thought it dangerous. How long was it before you went to the mayor about it?-It was about a month after when we went to the mayor. Could you at a month's distance take upon you to speak with accuracy as to particular words? Yes, I remembered the particular words. Have you ever taken minutes of them since?—No, I have never put any thing into writing Is the evidence you have given now the same as that you gave before the mayor?-Yes, exactly the same. What were the particular words or sentences in the sermon which you thought im ution of this country a glorious Revolution. proper?-Mr. Winterbotham called the Revo And was that one of the parts you thought dangerous and improper?-Yes; I thought his speaking of the Revolution in such terms, mischievous, as it introduced the other parts of the subject, and therefore very dangerous and improper. Well, and what other parts did you object to?-The defendant spoke highly favourable of the revolution in France; and laid a very great stress on its having relieved a number of people from despotic power and the papal yoke; and made this the ground of his rejoicing: this I thought dangerous and improper. Were there any other parts you objected to?-Speaking of the election of members of parliament he spoke of the corruption. Do you remember any particulars of what was said respecting the election of members of parliament?-No, I don't recollect any particulars; but I thought his speaking of bri bery and corruption very dangerous and im proper. Was there any thing else in the sermon you thought dangerous?-The general tenor of the discourse appeared to be so: speaking concerning the taxes, he said every man in a land of liberty, had a right to know how his money was to be applied: this I though! highly dangerous and improper. Was there any other part you thought improper? He said, "Why are your streets crowded with vagrants? your poor houses with poor, and your gaols with thieves? owing to the heavy taxes:" these I am positive was the identical words; I could not be mistaken. Did Mr. Winterbotham speak this as a circumstance he lamented, or in what manner did he speak of it?-He lamented those circumstances in his sermon, and thought it a kind of oppression to the inhabitants. And you thought that it was very improper and dangerous for Mr. Winterbotham to lament these distressing circumstances did you? -Yes, I did. Was there any other part you disapproved of and thought dangerous and improper?He spoke of the late armaments: and said a part he disapproved, and made use of the words, it is time to come forward in defence of your rights. Did Mr. Winterbotham use the latter expressions with reference to the armaments, or to any other part of his sermon?—I cannot say to what part the words referred, whether to the armament or any other. Were you at the meeting in How's-lane on the 5th of November last?—Yes, I was. Did you hear the defendant preach at that time? I did. What did you hear him say?-He said he approved of the French revolution, and made no doubt but the eyes of the people were opened. What people were they whose eyes he said were opened?-I understood he meant the people of England. Do you recollect the text?-No, I do not. Was the sermon divided? I believe it was. Have you given us your evidence in the defendant's own words?—Yes, as near as I can recollect. You are not quite certain they are all his own words ?--I am certain all I said were his own words; but I do not recollect all the particulars of the sermon. You say you believe the sermon was divided: do you recollect the division ?--No, I do not recollect the division or the subject. Miss Margaret Jago sworn.-Examined by Mr. Clapp. Pray Miss Jago where do you live?—At Cawsand. Do you know the defendant?—Yes. Do you remember his preaching this sermon on the 5th of November last ?-Yes, I was at the meeting. Were you there before the beginning of the sermon ?-Yes, I was there before Mr. Winterbotham came in. Will you tell us what you recollect of the sermon?—Mr. Winterbotham said our streets and poor houses are filled with poor, and our gaols with thieves, on account of oppressive debt, of the number of millions, he specified laws and taxes. He spoke of the national what had been said to be paid, and said I deny it; it is no other than taking money out of one pocket and putting it into the other; he said, he disapproved of the corrupt mode of choosing members of parliament, but I do not recollect the particular words he used. Cross-examined by Mr. Gibbs. I believe, Miss Jago, you said you were present at the beginning of this dicourse?—Yes, I was there from beginning to end. Did you pay particular attention to this sermon?--Yes, from the beginning to the end. Do you recollect the text?-No, I do not, it was so long ago. Do you recollect the division of the sermon, or whether it was divided ?-I believe it was divided, but cannot recollect the particular heads. Are you a usual attendant on the meeting? What else did he say?-He then said, why-No, but I have been there before. are your streets (or poor houses) crouded with poor, and your gaols with thieves, but because of the oppressive taxes. He was rather surprised people were happy and contented under their grievances, and did not stand forth for their rights. He likewise said, we thought we lived under a mild government and good laws, but it was no such thing. He mentioned the number of millions of the national debt, and what was said to be paid off: he said he spoke boldly, he denied it: he said we call ourselves Englishmen, an Englishman has a right to speak his own words, but I deny it. He thought we had as much right to stand up for our liberties as the people in France. He reprobated taxes and tax-gatherers, saying they come into your house to demand money out of your pockets. He thought we had a right to know which way the money was applied. Cross-examined by Mr. Dampier. Were you present at the beginning of the sermon? I was. VOL. XXII. Do you recollect the particular subject on which Mr. Winterbotham treated?--It was a sermon preached in commemoration of the Revolution, and the deliverance of this kingdom from papal power. Did Mr. Winterbotham treat these subjects largely?--Yes, he went much at large into these subjects. He went largely into the subjects of the Revolution in this kingdom, and its deliverance from papal power: pray did he go at large likewise into the deliverance of any other countries?-I do not recollect any thing that he said about the deliverance of other countries. Do you recollect Mr. Winterbotham saying in his sermon that the laws made at the time of the Revolution have been since abused and brought into disuse?—No, I do not recollect he said any thing about the laws being abused or brought into disuse. Do you think there was any thing of the kind said?-I believe not; I did not hear it. Do you recollect Mr. Winterbotham's saying he highly approved of the French revolution?-He said something about it, but I cannot remember the particulars. Do you remember any thing that Mr. Winterbotham said would be the probable consequences of the revolution in France; as that it would be the means of delivering it from papal power?-No, I do not recollect it. Did he say it had opened the eyes of the people of England?-I do not recollect any thing of the kind; I heard nothing about opening the eyes.t Did Mr. Winterbotham make use of the words oppressive laws and taxes, as a reason for the streets being filled with poor, &c.?I am almost sure that he did say oppressive taxes. Did you never say the word oppressive was not used?-I may have said that I did not recollect the word being used, but it appears now to me so clear, I can swear to it. rules, &c. ?*-No, he said nothing about his majesty, throughout the sermon. Did Mr. Winterbotham say we had as mucli right to stand up as they did in France for our liberties? +-1 do not recollect he said any thing like it. Do you think Mr. Winterbotham's sermon was calculated to excite sedition ?—I cannot say it appeared so to me; I thought it improper to be preached at that time, as ignorant persons might misconstrue it. William Little sworn. -Examined by Mr. Were you at the meeting in How's-lane on the 5th of November last?-Yes. Did you hear Mr. Winterbotham's discourse?—Yes; but I recollect but little about it, as I have a bad memory, and was never called upon before. What do you recollect?-Mr. Winterbotham spoke concerning the Revolution of 1688, and in my opinion, very much to the purpose: he mentioned something about the Birmingham riots, but what I do not recollect. He told about the perversion of laws, and the different situation of the nation at the time of the Revolution and this: I heard some things that did not please me, but cannot recollect the particular passages. He mentioned the streets being crowded with poor, and said something about heavy taxes, but said nothing about oppressive laws or taxes. Cross-examined by Mr. Gibbs. Do you remember what the difference was which Mr. Winterbotham pointed out between the situation of this country now and at the Revolution?-He pointed out a material distinction. He said that then there was no national debt, and that now there was a very Pray what money did you understand the defendant to mean when he spoke of taking it out of one pocket and putting it into the other?-I understood him to mean the na-large one. tional money. Do you recollect Mr. Winterbotham's saying in his sermon, that when there is a demand made in the House of Commons for a supply, they deny it at first, and on a second demand, there are two thirds, or three fourths, will grant it, and then they will share it among them? §-I do not recollect any such thing. Do you think you should have remembered it if it had been said?-If it had been said, I think I must have remembered it. Do you recollect Mr. Winterbotham's saying his majesty was placed upon the throne upon condition of keeping certain laws and The words laid in the first Count of the indictment. Orig. Edit. This, and the two preceding questions, include the words laid in the 2nd and 12th Counts. Orig. Edit. The words charged in the 3rd, 4th, 10th, and 13th Counts. Orig. Edit. § The words laid in the 7th Count, Orig. Edit. You are sure when Mr. Winterbotham was speaking of taxes, he did not use the word oppressive?-He said the taxes were heavy; but I do not remember that he said oppressive. Mary Channens sworn.-Examined by Mr. Morris. Were you at the meeting in How's-lane on Do you recollect the text?-No, I don't, Were you there all the time the defendant was preaching?—Yes, I was. What did he preach about?-He began with the revolution in France; he approved of it, and said he wished it to be the same here as it was there; he said it was high time for us to stand forth for our rights. He talked Edit. The words laid in the 11th Count. Orig. |
