SPEECH OF SIR BENJAMIN RUDYARD, IN THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE STATE OF RELIGION, 1628.

MR. PYм, I did not think to have spoken to this bill, because I was willing to believe that the forwardness of this committee would have prevented me; but now I hold myself bound to speak, and to speak in earnest.

In the first year of the king, and the second convention, I first moved for the increase and enlargement of poor ministers' livings. I showed how necessary it was, though it had been neglected; this was also commended to the house by his majesty. There being then, as now, many accusations on foot against scandalous ministers, I was bold to tell the house, that there were also scandalous livings, which were much the cause of the other; livings of five pounds, nay, even five marks a year; that men of worth and parts would not be muzzled up to such pittances: that there were some such places in England, as were scarce in all Christendom beside, where God was little better known than amongst the Indians. I exampled it in the utmost skirts of the north, where the prayers of the common people are more like spells and charms than devotions. The same blindness and ignorance is in the divers parts of Wales, which many in that country do both know and lament.

I also declared, that to plant good ministers was the strongest and surest means to establish true religion; that it would prevail more against papistry, than the making of new laws, or executing

of old; that it would counterwork court connivance and lukewarm accommodation; that though the calling of ministers be never so glorious within, the outward poverty will bring contempt upon them, especially among those who measure them by the ounce, and weigh them by the pound, which indeed is the greatest part of men.

Mr. Pym, I cannot but testify how, being in Germany, I was exceedingly scandalized to see the poor stipendiary ministers of the reformed churches there, despised and neglected by reason of their poverty, being otherwise very grave and learned men. I am afraid this is a part of the burden of Germany which ought to be a warning

to us.

I have heard many objections and difficulties, even to impossibilities against this bill. To him that is unwilling to go, there is ever a bear or a lion in the way. First, let us make ourselves willing, then will the way be easy and safe enough.

I have observed, that we are always very eager and fierce against papistry, against scandalous ministers, and against things which are not so much in our power. I should be glad to see that we did delight as well in rewarding as in punishing, and in undertaking matters within our reach, as this is absolutely within our power. Our own duties are next us, other men's further off. I do not speak this, that I do mislike the destroying and pulling down of that which is ill, but then let us be as earnest to plant and build up that which is good in the room of it. The best and the greatest way to dispel darkness, and the deeds thereof, is to VOL. II, 14

let in light; we say that day breaks, but no man can ever hear the noise of it; God comes in the still voice; let us quickly mend our candlesticks, and we shall not want lights.

I am afraid this backwardness of ours will give the adversary occasion to say, that we chose our religion because it is the cheaper of the two, and that we would willingly serve God with somewhat that costs us nought; believe it, Mr. Pym, he that thinks to save any thing by his religion, but his soul, will be a terrible loser in the end. We sow so sparingly, and that is the reason we reap so sparingly, and have no more fruit. Methinks, whosoever hates papistry, should, by the same rule, hate covetousness, for that is idolatry too. I never liked hot professions and cold actions; such a heat is rather the heat of a distemper and disease, than of life and saving health.

For scandalous ministers, there is no man shall be more forward to have them severely punished than I will be: when salt has lost its savour, fit it is to be cast on that unsavoury place, the dunghill. But, sir, let us deal with them as God hath dealt with us: God, before he made man, made the world, a handsome place for him to dwell in; so let us provide them some convenient livings, and then punish them in God's name; but till then, scandalous livings cannot but have scandalous ministers. It shall ever be a rule to me, that when the church and commonwealth are both of one religion, it is comely and decent that the outward splendour of the church should hold a proportion, and participate with the prosperity of the temporal state; for why should we dwell in houses of

cedar, and suffer God to dwell in tin. It was a glorious and religious work of king James, and I speak it to his unspeakable honour, and to the praise of that nation, who (though that country be not so rich as ours, yet are they richer in their affections to religion) within the space of one year caused churches to be planted through all Scotland, the highlands and borders, worth thirty pounds a year apiece, with a house and some glebe belonging to them; which thirty pounds a year, considering the cheapness of the country, and the modest fashion of ministers living there, is worth double as much as any where within a hundred miles of London. The printed act and commission whereby it may be executed, I have here in my hand, delivered unto me by a noble gentleman of that nation, and a worthy member of this house, sir Francis Stuart.

To conclude, although Christianity and religion be established generally throughout this kingdom, yet, until it be planted more particularly, I shall scarce think this a Christian commonwealth; seeing it hath been moved in parliament, it will lie heavy upon parliaments, until it be effected.

Let us do something for God here of our own, and no doubt God will bless our proceedings in this place the better for ever hereafter; and for my own part, I will never give over soliciting this cause, as long as parliaments and I shall live together.

SPEECH

OF EDMUND WALLER, ON THE

QUESTION WHETHER EPISCOPACY OUGHT ΤΟ BE

ABOLISHED. 1640.

THERE is no doubt but the sense of 'what this nation hath suffered from the present bishops, hath produced these complaints; and the apprehensions men have of suffering the like, in time to come, make so many desire the taking away of episcopacy: but I conceive it is possible that we may not, now, take a right measure of the minds of the people by their petitions; for, when they subscribed them, the bishops were armed with a dangerous commission of making new canons, imposing new oaths, and the like; but now we have disarmed them of that power. These petitioners, lately, did look upon episcopacy as a beast armed with horns and claws; but now that we have cut and pared them (and may, if we see causo, yet reduce it into narrower bounds), it may, perhaps, be more agreeable. Howsoever, if they be still in passion, it becomes us soberly to consider the right use and antiquity thereof; and not to comply further with a general desire, than may stand with a general good.

We have already showed that episcopacy, and the evils thereof, are mingled like water and oil; we have also, in part, severed them; but I believe you will find that our laws and the present government of the church are mingled like wine and water; so inseparable, that the abrogation of, at least, a hundred of our laws is desired in these petitions. I have often heard a noble answer of the lords commended in this house to a proposition