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Q. The custody was where !-1. In the Secretary's office with this

paper clerk.

Q. How did you get it from the Secretary's office !-A. By requisition just as we do now.

Q. Did the paper-mill ever deliver direct to your Bureau ?-A. Not since my connection with the Bureau.

Q. You know nothing of the checks at the mill to prevent more than is ordered, being manufactured, do you ?-A. Nothing definite at all. I knew that they had these automatic registers placed on the paper machines at the mill as a protection against the over-making of the paper, and I think that was successful.

Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge, or did you hear it ?A. Merely from my contact with the business of the bureau. I under: stood that it was working correctly and registering accurately. It was my understanding.

Q. You stated that about five per cent. of the paper received for printing was returned as imperfect, and was delivered to the currency branch of the Loan Division ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Imperfect sheets !-A. Yes, sir. Q. Why are they delivered there for that purpose ?--A. That is the office designated by the Secretary to receive from us the imperfect impressions and to balance our accounts.

Q. Is that the office from which you receive your paper ?-A. Practi. cally it is, although it is located in a different part of the building and, in a measure, outside the division.

Q. What do you mean by a different part of the building ?-A. The currency branch of the Loan Division is on this floor where your committee sits, near the west entrance, and is under the charge of Mr. C. H. Brown. In that division they receive the parts of the notes that have been redeemed and sent to the Secretary's office for destruction by maceration, and they also receive from us this imperfect work, whereas the clerk of that branch, who has particular charge of the paper, is located in the cellar near the northeast corner.

Q. But both belong to the Loan Division, as I understand ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Which comes under Mr. Fletcher ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How near ready for circulation is the note when you deliver it to the Comptroller of the Currency ?-A. It lacks only the signature of the bank officers.

Q. How is it with legal-tenders? Do the legal-tenders go through the same process you have described as to bank-notes; and do the bonds also ?-A. Substantially the same; there are differences of detail, and perfect legal tenders are delivered to the Treasurer of the United States.

Q. I understand that the legal tender-note, the greenback as it is commonly called, is perfect and ready for circulation when you deliver it to the Treasurer and take a receipt for it?-A. Yes, sir; just as you handle the legal-tender notes when they are in circulation.

Q. Who makes the demand on your office for the amount that is wanted of legal-tender notes ?-A. The Treasurer of the United States.

Q. The Treasurer orders, and you fill his order and take his receipt ?A. Yes, sir.

Q. The Register's name is on them, is it not ?-A. Yes, sir; it is.

Q. Do the notes go through the Register's office before being delivered to the Treasurer ?-A. No, sir.

Q. They are delivered directly from your office to the Treasurer !-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you take the Treasurer's receipt ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How is it with bonds ?-A. In the case of bonds, the order comes from the Secretary of the Treasury; and bonds for registry under all the old acts are delivered to the Register of the Treasury complete. Bonds of the 41 and 4 per cent. loans are delivered to the Loan Division of the Secretary's office.

Q. What becomes of the imperfect bonds ?-A. All imperfect work goes to the currency branch of the Loan Division.

Q. Then you send the perfect and.imperfect, as far as bonds are concerned, of the new loans, to the Loan Division ?-A. To different branches of the Loan Division.

Q. How near perfect is the bond when you deliver it; how near ready for sale or delivery to the parties who may buy ?-A. In the case of the old acts the bond is ready to be filled and have the signatures of the proper officers placed upon it. In the case of the four-and-a-halfs and fours, it requires the printing of a device in the Loan Division.

Q. And stamping ?-A. The stamping and printing of a special device in the Loan Division.

Q. Then, as to bonds, I understand they are perfect as to the old loans when they leave your bureau, all except the signatures !-A. And the filling in.

Q. Of dates and amounts ?-A. The date and amount, and the name of the holder.

Q. And as to the new bonds, the four-and-a-halfs and fours, you deliver them to the Loan Division, and there has yet to go a stamp upon them before they are completed ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, as to the bonds printed by your bureau, are they numbered by you or by the parties to whom you deliver them ?-A. They are numbered by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

Q. Are they numbered consecutively in each class ?-A. Yes, sir. Each class and denomination commences at one and runs in continuous series upward.

Q. Then a $50 bond and a $100 bond might be of the same number? -A. Yes, sir. Q. And so on of any other denominations ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. A $5,000 bond might be of the same number as a $500 bond !-A. Yes, sir.

Q. I understand you to say that you receive the paper for a bond from the Loan Division, and you deliver the perfect bonds and the imperfect bonds back to the same division ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And take their receipts, I suppose, in both cases ?-A. We take their receipts.

By Mr. INGALLS: Q. Where did you say this paper was manufactured !-A. Formerly the distinctive fiber paper was manufactured at Glen Mills, Pennsylvania, and the threaded paper that has been recently adopted is made at Dalton, Mass.

Q. By whom I-A. By Crane & Co. at present.

Q. Under a contract with the bureau ?-A. Under a contract with the Secretary of the Treasury.

Q. And what safeguard is there against their manufacturing more of this kind of paper than is delivered to the government ?-A. The Secretary has an agent at the mill with a corps of counters, and they have these automatic registers attached to the machine that makes the paper.

Q. How is the paper transmitted to the Treasury ?-A. By Adams Express Company.

Q. Is a large amount of it kept on hand at any given time?—A. Yes, sir; a considerable quantity in the department here, necessarily.

Q. How frequently is it received from the manufacturers ?-A. I think about every other day.

Q. Under guard here all the time?-A. It is under guard here all the time.

By Mr. BECK: Q. Is all the printing done in your bureau now?-A. All the printing; yes, sir; except on the postage stamps and the proprietary and documentary stamps for the internal revenue.

Q. Where are they in part printed ?-A. They are printed entirely in New York City, by a bank-note company, by contract.

By the CHAIRMAN: Q. I omitted to ask you about revenue stamps, whether you printed those and delivered them perfect in the same way, taking the receipt of the Internal Revenue Bureau ?-A. Yes, sir; in the same way. We deliver the perfect stamps to the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, and take his receipt for them, and the imperfect to the currency branch of the Loan Division.

The chairman laid before the committee the following letter from the acting chief of the Warrant Division :


January 31, 1880. Hon. H. G. DAVIS,

Chairman Committee Investigating Treasury Books and Accounts : Sir: In compliance with your verbal request, I have the honor to append hereto a list of officers connected with the department who have given bond to the United States for the faithful performauce of their official duties, with the penalty thereto attached in each case. Very respectfully, your obedient servant,


Acting Chief of Warrant Division. James Gilfillan, Treasurer of the United States.....

$150, 000 00 John Jay Knox, Comptroller of the Currency

100, 000 00 J. W. Langworthy, Deputy Comptroller of the Currency

50, 000 00 J. W. Porter, disbursing agent, Coast Survey..

30, 000 00 Thomas J. Hobbs, disbursing clerk.

30, 000 00 Bushrod Birch, disbursing clerk...

10, 000 00 E. Collamer, disbursing clerk, Register's Office..

10, 000 00 Z. Ellis, disbursing clerk, 6th Auditor's Office..

10, 000 00 J. H. Robinson, Assistant Solicitor, disbursing agent..

10, 000 00 The CHAIRMAN laid before the committee the following letter, addressed by him to the Secretary of the Treasury on the 9th instant: COMMITTEE OX TREASURY BOOKS AND ACCOUNTS,

January 9, 1830. Hon. Joux SHERMAN,

Secretary of the Treasury : Sir: The Senate Committee on Treasury Books and Accounts will take testimony at their room, No. 65, in the Treasury building, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., to-morrow, the 10th instant, and hope to close the evidence on which to base their report.

I thought it proper to advise you of this fact, and invite you to be present, if you desire it. We have furnished you with all the evidence and exhibits heretofore taken. We will take, before we close, such evidence as you may think necessary to offer, our desire being to present all the facts fully to the Senate. Very respectfully,



The CHAIRMAN. I will state to the committee that I have had no official response from the Secretary. Yesterday I called at the Secretary's office, but he and the chief clerk were both away. I told the Assistant Secretary and the clerk to the chief clerk to say that we would finish to-day, and told them if they had anything to say we should hear them. The Secretary, however, in a prior conversation with me, thought he had nothing further to say; but that was a few days ago. I notified the Assistant Secretary yesterday that I thought we should close to-day the taking of testimony.

MARCH 31, 1880. WILLIAM GUILFORD recalled.

By the CHAIRMAN : Question. I presume you have read your testimony as printed on page 26 of the testimony before this committee ?-Answer. Yes, sir.

Q. A question was asked you whether or not the three items making up the $6,293,827.79, mentioned in your former statement, were upon the books of the Register's office ?–A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Just explain to the committee what you meant in the testimony which you gave before the committee previously about the six million and odd dollars being added to the public debt ?-A. They were added to the public debt in accordance with the letter of Mr. Saville, the chief clerk of the Treasury Department, to the Register, in order to harmonize the debt statements.

Q. Was that sum taken from the books or given to you as in a lump ?A. It was given me in the three separate items, as laid down in the Finance Report of 1871, in the note to page 11.

Q. You refer to the report of 1871. What year was it given to you in to add to tbe debt? Was it in 1870 or 1871 ?-A. I cannot recollect now, but I think it was 1871.

Q. Does it not appear in 1870 ?-A. Not that I am aware of.

Q. The Secretary's table of the debt statement as you now have it is in the report of 1870 !-A. The Secretary's, but not the Register's. The Register's, I think, was changed in 1871. It did not appear there until 1871.

Q. Was not the Secretary's new table made up in 1870 and published in the report of 1870 ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are the three items making this $6,000,000 and upwards upon the Register's books or not ?—A. They are not; and, what is more, none of those items are upon the books that go to make up the public debt as now stated. The public debt is a balance as now stated. We take the balance for one year, and we add the receipts on account of loans and deduct the expenditures on that account, and that makes another bal

We have no continuous account of the public debt that I am aware of.

Q. How is the public debt statement made up ?-A. The statement of the public debt, as I make it up at present, is by first taking the bal. ance of the public debt as standing the last year, then adding to it all receipts from loans, deducting from it all redemptions of loans, and that gives a balance which we call the public debt. That is as we make it up now.

Q. How was it made up formerly?-A. I cannot tell about that except from hearsay. It used to be made up from the books of issues and redemptions. It is now made up from the receipts on account of loans and the expenditures on account of loans.


Q. Then the three items referred to are not upon the books to your knowledge ?-A. Two of them are not on the books of the Register.

Q. On any books?-A. Not to my knowledge on any books, with the exception of that $1,000,000 item that appears upon the books as receipts from the sale of prize vessels to the Navy pension fund, and subsequently the 3 per cent. certificates were issued for it, and it then became public debt. Prior to that it was in the “miscellaneous receipts."

By Mr. WHYTE: Q. And credited to the Navy pension fund ?-A. Credited to the Navy pension fund.

By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Is that a fund on the books of the Register or on the books of the Secretary-A, On both books, I believe.

Q. Have you ever seen it?-A. Not that particular item. I have seen moneys credited to the Navy pension fund year after year and year after year from the sale of prize vessels until it amounted to quite a large credit, which was subsequently drawn on Navy pay warrant by Mr. Bridge. I think twelve and a half millions was drawn by a warrant against the Navy pension fund, and, as I understand, it was covered into the public debt by 3 per cent. certificates.

Q. Then you suppose it is there from the fact that you have seen entries; but do you know whether it is there or not?-A. I do not.

By Mr. DAWES: Q. Read the question and answer which I now show, and tell me what the meaning is.-A. The question and answer here referred to are from my previous testimony, in these words:

Q. Now state why in the nature of things these items would not appear on the books of the Register.-A. They do appear upon the books, but not as classified in the public debt statement. They all appear on the books, but not as classified in the public debt statement. It does not change the total of the expenditures or receipts of the government one cent. It merely changes the method of classification.

That was my idea when I made that answer, and it is still my idea with the exception of the items of discount. That would not appear upon the books, because it was not received at all. If we have a loan of $50,000,000 and we only receive $40,000,000 for it, there being $10,000,000 of discount, that would not appear upon the books.

Q. Then you still say that these three items are upon the books in the Treasury Department ?--A. With the exception of matters of discount.

Q. But they are not on the Register's books classified as public debt? -A. Yes, sir.

Q. But they are on books kept in the Treasury Department.-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Under the same head or under a different head up to that time?A. Under a different head, such as “miscellaneous.”

Q. Under the “miscellaneous" head ?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. They were, by direction of Mr. Saville, transferred from that “miscellaneous" head to the classification of public debt by you, were they? A. Or vice versa.

Q. Was there any change made of figures upon your books ?-A. None upon the books.

Q. Do you know whether there was any change of figures made upon any other books?—A. In order to harmonize these two statements, you mean?

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