« AnteriorContinuar »
Q. You did not bave any Talbot tickets in your hand !--A. No; I didu't peddle Talbot tickets.
Q. You do not call it bulldozing for you to peddle Butler tickets at the door!-A. No; but I look at that as something that I never saw done before. I never saw the agent of the corporation peddling tickets at tbe door until last fall election.
Q. That is the something that you tbiok is not right-tbe agent of the corporation peddling tickets !-A. I do not say that if a man is a distributor be bas not tbe right to peddle tickets; but I say it was some. thing I had never saw done before.
Q. But you were working in the corporation twenty-seven years, and, knowing the men, you thought it was perfectly right for you to staud there and peddle Butler tickets? -A. They had put me there before.
Q. Which of you, Mr. Moore or yourself—was better acquainted with the men in the shop ?-A. I think I know the politics of the men better than he does.
Q. Your social relations with them are better than Mr. Moore's ?-A. Certainly.
Q. Do yon think it was a just thing for you, working in that shop twenty-seven years, as you bad, and knowing those men as well as you did, to stanıl there and pedule tickets !-A. They have always put me on to peddle tickets.
Q. For Mr. Moore to do it it was bulldozing ?-A. I don't know that be does. I was speaking of Butler mostly.
Q. O, Butler was the bulldozer! Now, what was the wicked thing that Butler did !-A. I say that that was the talk I heard among the help. He never has done anything to me.
Q. Have you ever, of your personal knowledge, known Mr. Butler to do a thing which you really considered improper in the matter of elections 1-A. From my personal knowledge!
Q. Yes, sir.-A. I could not from my personal knowledge say that.
Q. You had pretty hot times up here last fall, in the campaigu !-A. Yes; hot all around.
Q. It was very excited, and people, probably, went further than they would bave been likely to go in an ordinary election. I do not understand you to say that any man who told you that be was going to vote the Butler ticket, told you subsequently that he was going to vote the Talbot ticket because he was afraid to vote for Butler ?-A. No; I do not say that they told me; I have only taken it from their actions.
Q. That is simply an inference of yours from their actions; they have not told you so !-A. No; I have not made any such statement as that.
Q. What is Mr. Thayer's relation there ?— A. He is a grain dealer. Q. Connected with the corporation I-A. No, sir.
Q. But Mr. Moore and Mr. Butler did the wicked thing of standing by the ballot-box and watching the voters ?-A. I saw them stand rigbt
Q. Did not the Democrats stand up there too!-A. They crowd the Democrats off.
Q. Did these two men crowd the Democrats off !-A. Well, they stand there, they and the others generally.
Q. How do you hold the Douglass Axe Company responsible for the wicked thing that these two men did in standing near the ballot-box and looking at the voters ?-A. I don't hold the Douglass Axe Company responsible for it.
Q. Here were these two men, Butler and Thayer, who stood there and asked men to vote. Thayer did that too, did he ?-A. O, he figures with them.
Q. Mr. Tbayer does not own any stock in the corporation and does not work there -A. I could not tell whether he owns stock in the corporation or not.
Q. But because a man stands at the polls and offers tickets to men who want to vote, you call it bulldozing!--A. He offered men money to vote against me.
Q. I am coming to that; he is the man who tried to bire men ?-A. Yes, sir, in 1876.
Q. Did Butler do that ?-A. No; I do not say that he did.
Q. Did Moore do that?-A. I never heard of Moore doing anythiug of that.
Q. This wicked grain dealer, then, is the one who must be investigated; wbat was the name of the man he offered to bire ?-A. Frank Putnam.
Q. Is he here?-A. He is here. Q. What you know about that is what he told you, I suppose l-A. He told me this some two years ago.
Q. When was it ?—A. It was in 1876 ; I was elected at the Presidential election.
Q. That was the time, you understand, that this terrible Thayer tried to buy a man !-A. Yes; he did all he could.
Q. And what you know about it is what Putnam told you ?-A. Yes, sir. Q. And Mr. Putnam is bere to tell his own story ?—A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. McDONALD : Q. What did the help tell you about Butler trying to bulldoze them ! A. Tbey would come and tell this; this I hearı, that he would come and tell them that they were workivg against their interests, and they must vote the Republican ticket, or they must vote the Talbot ticket, insinuating that they would lose their places; that it was against the interests of the company.
Q. Did this kind of advice have any influence upon them ?-A. It did; it made some twenty.five or thirty votes difference in the town.
Q. This man Thayer, you say, although not connected with these manofacturing establishments, had some special relations with these agents 1-8. Yes, sir.
Q. You are simply an employé there in the factory doing your own work and having no power to employ or discharge men -A. No; I have no men that I discharge; I stand in the same positiou that any man does w bo is hired there to do work.
Q. Mr. Moore is the superintendent and controls the employment of the men there !-A. Yes; he hires and turns away.
Q. So that he stood in a position to give his advice much more influ. ence than you could give yours !-A. O, of course.
Q. When he told then it was to their interest to vote in that way, his advice was much more convincing than yours could be ?—A. Yes.
By Mr. PLATT: Q. Wbat man told you that Mr. Butler bad told him that he had better rote for Talbot or he would lose his place !-A. No man told me that just as you word the question, that he would lose his place," but that it would be for bis interest, or tbat he worked against the interest of the company. Butler would ask them the question.
Q. I am asking for facts, not for stories as you heard them around, unless they have been told you by the men themselves.-A. I will an. swer your question. They have told me tbis, that he would come and ask them just before the election how they were going. They would say, “ Well, I am going to vote the Democratic ticket.”
He would say, "Well, it is for your interest to vote the other way, to vote Republican." I have heard that.
Q. Did he tell them also that it was for his interest or the manufacturer's interests that they should vote the other way !-A. He said it was for the interest of the company. He seemed to put the company or corporation in. He said he would like them to work well. He did not say that they were against his interest, but that they worked against the interest of the corporation.
Q. Give the names of some of the men who you say told you that Mr. Butler told them that.-A. Warren Casey has told me that; Burton Goddard, I think, is one who stated it.
Q. Any one else !-A. I do not think of any others.
Q. Did either of these men, Casey or Goddard, say to you that Mr. Butler said anything to them about discharging them or anything of that sort in case they voted otherwise ?-A. No; they never said any. thing of that.
Q. Are those men Democrats 1-A. They are.
Q. Always!-A, I could not say as to that. Since I have known them, I think they have voted the Democratic ticket.
Q. How long have you known them -A. I have known them fifteen or twenty years.
Q. Have they worked tbere in that company all the time !--A. Not all the time, I think.
Q. How long have they worked there!-A. I guess that Goddard has voted there some six or seven years. He is here to give his evidence.
Q. They are there still ?-A. They are there still.
Q. They still work for the company ?-A. They still work for the company.
Q. Goddard bas not been discharged 1-A, Goddard has not been discharged.
Q. How did Casey vote!-A. Casey voted the ticket and lost his job after the town meeting.
Q. Is Casey here !-A. He is here and will give bis evidence.
Q. Which way did Goddard vote?-A. The Democratic ticket, I expect.
Q. He is still there at work?-A. Yes, sir; and he is still here to give bis evidence.
Q. Did you get liim down bere ?—A. No, sir; I did not get him down here.
Q. Did you give his name to any one to get him here !--A. Did I give his name to any one to get bim here?
Q. Yes; that is just the question I asked.-A. I banded in the names of some two, and one was the name of Goddard.
By Mr. BLAIR : Q. To wbom did you give those names ?-A. I gave them, I think, to Plympton; I think that is tbe man's name.
Q. Have you any doubt that these manufacturers believed what they said to these employés, that if they voted the Butler ticket they would be voting against the real interest of the manufacturers !-A. That is what they talked to them.
Q. Do you not believe that these manufacturers were honestly con. vinced that the operatives were voting to destroy the manufacturing industries in voting the Butler ticket !-A. I have no idea.
Q. Do you not believe it !-A. I think they used that as a whip.
Q. Do you believe that they were lying about it?-A. I cannot say. I think they used that to whip them in.
Q. The question is whether you thought that these manufacturers believed that by voting for General Butler and against them, the operatives were voting to injure the industrial interests of Massachusetts ? -A. I cannot tell.
Q. Do you not think that they thought so!-A. I cannot tell.
Q. Do you not think that they might have thought so 1-A. They might. I could not tell wbat they thougbt.
Q. Have you any reason to believe that they were not sincere in that? - A. They might bare been sincere. Q. They voted against Butler themselves 1-A. They did every time.
Q. Do you not suppose that they believed that they were voting for their own interest in voting against Butler!-A. Of course all corporations that worked against bim would vote against him.
Q. The corporations are not carried on at the election polls!-A. They bave a good deal to do there.
Q. What can a manufacturer do without labor?-A. He cap do nothing.
Q. Can he do any better without labor than he can without capital ? -A. He cannot, but a man ought to be free.
Q. Of course a man ought to be free; but the point is whether the manufacturers do wrong in expressing their sentiments to their help. Here are men who have capital, who bire labor. They make their profit out of capital and labor combined, do they not!-A. Certainly.
Q. It takes both to carry on business ; capital cannot do without labor any more than labor can do without capital. Here are these manu. facturers. They say to this class of whom you have spoken as ignorant lirshmen, and of whom you say but few can read, “ Here are your in. terests and our interests." Do you not think that they are sincere iu tbat?-A. But you see they do not allow them to vote.
Q. But you say that all that they told these operatives was that it was to their interest to vote the Talbot tieket. Now, these men not are capitalists, but manufacturers, and I ask you if you do not suppose they were entirely sincere in telling the operatives that they were voting against their (the operatives') own interests in voting for Batler?-A. I do not know that they were.
Q. Do you not suppose that in taking that ground they were just as sincere as you were in taking the other ground and telling these men to vote for you because it was for your interest ?—A. I think it very likely tbat they may bave been.
Q. Do you think that they did any wrong, then ?-A. I think they used all the power they could use to defeat Butler.
Q. Why did they not use the power of discharging any of their op. eratives, if they used all the power that they could use i–A. I have reason to believe that this one fellow was discharged.
Q. But the great mass of this help worked right along, and work tbere to day!-A. I think they did.
Q. And the great mass of them worked against their employers, as they usually do and wave for this past year 1-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have yon not testified that most of the votes of those operatives were cast for General Butler I-A. I say that inost of them are French ; there are but a few Irish.
Q. But most of them voted against their employers !-A. I do not think they did.
Q. Let me ask you this: If those employers had been disposed to intimidate their men and bad gone to them, when help was so scarce as it was last fall, and had said, “Here, you vote with us or we will turn you off," would they not have intimidated more men than they are said to have intimidated ?-A. I think they would have, if they had put it right square to them.
Q. What was to prevent them from saying that to the men if they wanted to intimidate the men ?-A. I do not know.
Q. Have you known anything of men in this State being driven into the woods and staying there for weeks and months, because of outrages upon them!
Have you known of intimidation that amounts to any. thing at all like that?-A. I have read a good deal, but as for knowing personally of that, I cannot say that I do.
A. What have the manufacturers done? Do you not believe that all this talk of intimidation here in Massachusetts is a mere pretense, a sham 1-A. No, I do not.
Q. They do resort to a good deal of it, you think!-A. Yes, sir; that is my opinion.
Q. Yet you have traveled around the State to get less than half a dozen instances where men have been turned off ?-A. I have seen ac. counts of tbeir baving been turned off.
Q. But you do not know of but one or two yourself ?-A. In my own town. I am not traveling around.
Q. Do you believe there is a place in the world where men vote as they please any more freely than in Massachusetts; and, if so, where is it 1-A. I cannot say that.
Q. If you are so oppressed in Massachusetts, why do you not try some other State ?-A. I am not through with Massachusetts yet.
Q. You don't feel very much oppressed, then, do you l-A. No, sir. Q. You are as free as ever -A. I guess so.
Q. You see no occasion for leaving ?-A. There is nothing to drive me away.
Q. I do not imagine that anything will. You are just as free as you please to be, and do you not think that that is true of the people in general ?-A. Well, sir, I think that when these corporations interfere it is wrong.
Q. What will you do with these corporations! If you destroy these corporations, how will you get your living ?-A. They cannot live without us—you say so yourself.
Q. But you propose to live without them !-A. I do not go in for de. stroying any of the corporations. I go in for a man having his equal rights. Q. Are you oppressed by them !-A. I am not. Q. Are the people as a mass oppressed by them !-A. I think they are.
Q. And they must all vote against the corporations l-A. No, they do not.
Q. The great mass of them ?--A. They do not.
Q. Which way will you have your testimony ?-A. I will bave it that they go with corporations as a rule against their own sentiments.
Q. But the testimony has been that nineteen out of ever twenty Irishmen vote against the corporations !-A. I never stated any such thing as that.
Q. I do not know that you did put it quite so large as that.-A. No, sir; I did not make any such statement as that.