might think the subject proper for a Bill. He faid, that it was not impoffible but the extraordinary light which the Right Honourable Gentleman could throw on the fubject, might change the opinion he had formed: but from fuch information as he had been able to obtain, (which was, perhaps, not equal to what the Right Hon. Gentleman had opportunities of obtaining,) he was convinced, in his own mind, of the illegality of the fentences pronounced against Muir and Palmer. There might be those who thought with him, that although the criminal law is not, yet it ought to be, the fame in the northern as in the southern part of the kingdom. Whatever might be the legality of thefe judgments, of this he was fure, that those who had any respect for the law of England, and wifhed to fee it refpected by the public, could not with to argue thefe points feparate, and without reference to each other, and that he conceived would beft be done in the manner propofed by Mr. Adam.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer differed from Mr. Fox upon the latter part of his obfervation; for he thought the diftinct points to which he alluded fhould be argued feparately, as those could join in any part of the Bill for altering the law, who had no doubt of the legality of the late judgments, if the alteration was not to proceed upon an admiffion of fuch illegality. He wished to meet the difcuffion upon the nature of the propofed alteration of the law, and the question of legality of the judgments alluded to, diftinct and separate.

Mr. Fox declared, that the Bill was not founded on the particular cafes which the Right Honourable Gentleman had fuppofed it to be.,

Mr. Sheridan obferved, that, as both questions must folemnly have the adjudication of Parliament, it was poffible, at least, that, after the difcuffion, it may be of opinion that the late-fentences inflicted upon Mr. Muir, Mr. Palmer, and others, were illegal. In fuch cafe it would be extremely unjust that these Gentlemen, who were now fuffering the judgment (fuch as it was) of the Court of Scotland, fhould be out of the reach of being benefited by the determination. He therefore felt a degree of confidence that no further measure would be taken towards carrying the fentences into effect, till the queftion was finally difcuffed.

Mr. Secretary Dundas affured the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) that he ought not to place much reliance on the poftponement of the fentences till the claufe alluded to had come before the Committee.

Mr. Adam obferved, that he did not mean to attach the Cafe of Muir to the general intention of his Bill. He faid that he had endeavoured to make it clearly understood that his intention was, upon bringing in the Bill for an Appeal, not to difcufs the queftion

No. 3.

at all respecting the late trials, but to confine himself ftrictly to the propriety or impropriety of giving an Appeal, as confidering that the proper time for difcuffing the trials alluded to, would be when the inftruction to the Committee was moved, to give the Bill a retrofpect to the year 1793.

Mr. Sheridan faid nothing fhould be done by furprize on either fide in this bufinefs. The only proper way would be, for his Honourable Friend, after the fecond reading of the Bill, and before the commitment, to move for the inftruction to the Committee, than which nothing could be more regular.

Mr. Anstruther objected to this mode of proceeding. Whatever his Honourable Friend intended to move, he would do it at his own option; he would do it to-day or to-morrow, or other any time. If the fentence was fuch as fhould not have been, and could not legally be paffed, they fhould move whatever they pleased upon it, and when they pleafed; but a notice of this kind should not have produced fo many obfervations. He was glad, however, that the whole matter was to be debated in the Houfe of Commons. Being convinced of his ability to vindicate, to the cleareft demonftration, the legality of thefe fentences, he was glad to find the fubject brought forth for fair difcuffion; and the more fo, as doubts of the illegality had been industriously whispered amongst the public, in fuch a manner as to take away the opportunity of explaining them. He alfo hinted at fomething of unfairness in Gentlemen wishing to delay the courfe of public juftice, until they themselves fhould think proper to introduce the precife queftion in fome stage of proceedings that may perhaps be very diftant.

Mr. Fox animadverted on the invidious charge of whispers of illegality being circulated at a time when there were no means of refuting them. He knew nothing of any whifpers on this or any other fubject: connected with his duty as a Member of that House, he did not know what the Learned Gentleman meant by whispers. It was a fubject which had been loudly spoken of. He hoped he did not call what was faid in that House to be a whifper, when he (Mr. Fox) declared the fentence illegal; and, if not illegal, unjust and severe. If the Court of Jufticiary were vefted with an authority to inflict arbitrary punishments, in the prefent instance, he was convinced that they had abufed that authority. He afked where the opportunity occurred of difputing the legality with publicity and effect, but at the meeting of Parliament, and difif any time had been loft in bringing the queftion into open cuffion? For his part, far from whispering, he had been ready, frankly and explicitly, to avow, that he had confidered the subject pretty much, and recurred to materials of information furnifhed him by others; and, however his fentiments might be inAuenced by the lights to be received in a debate, his prima facie

opinion

He

opinion at present was, that the fentence was illegal. This opinion he held in common with others much better informed: and he thought it would be a very unfeemly proceeding to carry the judgments into execution upon a confident anticipation of what may be the decifion of the House. Parliament was that Court to which appeals muft ever lie from every Court, in all extraordinary occafions where there was no other to be resorted to. muft therefore again repeat that the fentence of the Judges was illegal, as they had exceeded their powers: in the fecond place, that did they actually poffefs that power, they at least abused their difcretion in not having chofen fome milder and more proportionate punishment: thirdly, that if fuch was the feverity of the laws, and their adminiftration in Scotland, very little refpect was paid to the laws of England by the executive fervants of His Majefty in carrying into effect punishments fo different from these inflicted here; and, finally, that if the Officers of the Crown had fuch ftrange notions of humanity, temperance, and juftice, it was the duty of the Commons of Great Britain to address the Sovereign for a mitigation of the fentence. On all these several objects Parliament had a right to employ itfelf, and was at liberty to ufe immediate interference, fhould circumstances render it neceflary. I have (faid Mr. Fox) too much reliance on the candour of the Right Honourable Gentleman (M. Dundas) to whofe care the executive part of this proceeding chiefly belonged; I have too high an opinion of his good fenfe, his knowledge of propriety, his fenfe of humanity, and his love of juftice, to fuppofe that he would place thefe unhappy perfons in a fituation where the determination of Parliament might be of no ufe to them.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that after the fulleft information he could obtain on the subject, it appeared to him that there was nothing in which he was more clear than the legality of the fentences; and that the Judges, fo far from abufing their difcretion, had conducted themselves in the most laudable manner by pronouncing them. Under thefe impreffions, he deemed it inconfiftent with the dignity of the Executive Magiftrate, or of his Minifters, to accede to any compromise, especially a compromife which had for its fole foundation the doubts of a few individuals, opposed to the folemn decifion of a court of competent jurifdiction, and that decifion fanctioned by the most decided acquiefcence of the Servants of the Crown. The individuals he meant, might, if they fo pleafed, move to addrefs the King on the fubject; but there was not then the smallest reafon to fuppofe that the House would concur in fuch an Addrefs to his Majefty as that alluded to by Mr. Fox. He however (Mr. Pitt) would not, on

N 2

their

their application, confent to the delay of the fentence for a fingle hour.

Mr. M. A. Taylor admitted that Mr. Dundas and Mr. Anftruther were no mean authorities upon the fubject of Scotch Law, both having been practitioners in that country; but he would be enabled to adduce ftill more refpectable authorities in fupport of a contrary opinion. Having been in Scotland on the very day that the verdict was pronounced, he had the honour to be in company with feveral Gentlemen very high in the profeffion at the Scoth Bar, and one of them the higheft, (Mr. H. Erfkine,) who were unanimous 'in declaring that the fentence was illegal. They alfo gave their reafons for the opinion, which reafons he had not forgot; and he would therefore move for an Address to his Majefty, according to the Right Honourable Gentleman's propofal.

Several Gentlemen attempted to fpeak, but were interrupted by the Speaker, who obferved, that the converfation, which had gone to an unfual length, had been altogether irregular, as there was no queftion before the Houfe. It is, however, generally underftood, that fhould there be an immediate danger of the sentence of transportation being carried into effect before the regular difcuffion, Mr. Sheridan will move for an Addrefs to His Majefty for its fufpenfion.

Mr. Adam gave notice, that he would bring forward his Motion regularly on Tuesday the 4th of February.

HIS MAJESTY'S MESSAGE.

His Majefty fent a Meffage to the Houfe, informing them, that he had given Orders for the difembarkation of a Corps of Heffians, which had arrived off Portfmouth, in order to prevent Sickness amongst the Troops, from lying on board the Transports, and that they were to be quartered in the Isle of Wight, and places adjacent.

Mr. Dundas then moved, that an humble Addrefs be presented to His Majefty, expreffing the Thanks of the Houfe for his moft gracious Meffage. Agreed nem. con.

Mr. Sheridan afked if this body of Heffian troops was that under the command of Lord Moira? He was told they were by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

PAPERS.

Mr. Sheridan rofe for the Purpose of giving Notice of his Intention to move, on Wednesday the 29th, for those Papers which contained the Appointments on the commencement of the War, and the Expences incurred by the Creation of New Offices, which the People without doors indecently called jobs. To this Motion he did not fuppofe any objection could be made, as the

Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) was fo loud in his profeffions of conducting every thing in a fair and candid manner.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that though the Honour, able Gentleman might have established his own right to ask whatever he pleased, yet he had not laid him (Mr. Pitt) under the fame obligation to give it till the particular nature of the requifition was made known, and that on the prefent occafion was not attempted.

Mr. Sheridan faid he had not made up his mind as to all the Papers he should call for as yet.

Mr. Pitt obferved, the Honourable Member had applied an epithet, but did not know to what.

Mr. Sheridan faid, he was forry to fee the Right Honourable Gentleman fo fore upon the occafion: the places he alluded to were Counsel to the Board of Controul, which he had no doubt but the Right Honourable Gentleman would convince the Houfe and the Public was neceflary, and no job; the appointment on the Staff at Toulon, and on the Staff for the projected expedition under Lord Moira. The Accounts of the Expences incurred by these appointments were what he called for, which he could not think would be refufed, as they would be all made to appear, not only useful, but neceffary. The Motion was fixed for the 28th. Adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Tuesday, Jan. 28.

APPEALS FROM SCOTLAND.

Received various Petitions of Appeal from the Court of Seffion, on which the ufual Orders were made.

Several Accounts were prefented purfuant to Order.

JUSTICIARY COURT OF SCOTLAND. Earl Stanhope rofe to call the attention of their Lordships to a fubject of the greatest importance, as they all would acknowledge, when he stated it to relate to the pure adminiftration of juftice. The conduct of judges could not be investigated any where with. fo much propriety as in that Houfe; and from the peculiar circumftances of fome late trials in the High Court of Jufticiary in Scotland, it was his intention to bring forward a Motion on Friday the 31ft. He therefore moved that the House be fummoned.

The Lord Chancellor wifhed the Noble Earl to ftate the object of his motion, as was ufual on ordering the Houfe to be fum-. moned.

Earl Stanhope faid, although he did not conceive himself obliged to declare the grounds of his motion, he had no difficulty in faying, it was on the Trial of Mr. Muir.

The Earl of Lauderdale contended, that, by the practice of the Houfe, it was not neceffary for his Noble Friend to state any

fpecific